Why Morrissey is right on immigration!

[ThisCharmingGirl]

Do you listen to John Gaunt each day on
No one says anything about thousands of Brits now living in Spain, shafting the local Spanish culture, reading the Sun everyday and watching Sky Sports whilst saying 'Landan ain't Landan anymore, to many bladdy foreigners init'.

Yes, and some of them almost try to force us to speak to them in English, that's very funny They don't make any try to learn Spanish, they think they're still living in the UK but with sun LOL

I think inmmigration is a very difficult issue, we have a similar situation in Spain with all the "cayucos" (littles ships) arriving everyday from Africa. And I'm not racist at all, but I think inmigration would be controlled somehow, if not it's impossible for a country to afford all that rising of population in such short period of time. But I also think if all that people come here is because they are desperated and they don't have another choice, and that's very sad

 

[Jukebox Jury]

That's not a very convincing example, though. We have a very low unemployment rate here, relatively speaking. Last's month's unemployment rate for NYC is 5.3%. I doubt that a sizeable portion of those unemployed citizens tried to get jobs as bartenders, only to be priced out by immigrant labor.

Just because other countries are incompetant at controlling their own borders does not mean that we should do the same. Illegal immigrants should be dealt with by proper enforcement of the law not the deliberate turning of a blind eye.

The point I'm trying to make (and I've been drinking since around 2pm!) is yes, Morrissey is right in his comments, but the same could be said in any 'wealthy' country. I myself have worked illegally for 6 months in Australia and 3 months in New Zealand. This was in the early 1990's and I was there working with tens of Brits / Europeans doing the same, whilst no doubt tens and tens of Aussies and Kiwis were doing the same in the UK. The world has got bigger now and we have to accept that. Yes lots of Poles / Czech's are coming to the UK but nothing is said of the thousands of Brits who are going the other way into Europe. My brother has lived in Dubai for 13 years - there are estimated 200,000 Brits living in the United Arab Emerites, yet no one blinks an eyelid.

Jukebox Jury

 

[2-J]

Poland should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. The whole idea of the EU is a community of peers on some kind of equal footing (or let's invite all the African nations to join too, why not?)... if the first thing that happens when a country joins the EU is that a huge proportion of its youth up sticks and move to another country.. then something is very wrong.

I have no objection to *any* country joining the EU in principle, just that if you have these massive imbalances then you're going against what it was all meant to be about.

 

[Jukebox Jury]

I have no problem with the Poland being in the EU.
When it came to squaring up to Adolf Hitler, the Poles were there having a pop back, ensuring Hitler was not able to succeed. Can you say the same for, say, Italy?

Jukebox Jury

 

[2-J]

Economic and social realities are pertinent here; the history of World War 2 is not.

 

[Jukebox Jury]

So as long as they are the 'right kind of immigrant' you are OK then?

Jukebox Jury

 

[Not Right in the Head]

So as long as they are the 'right kind of immigrant' you are OK then?

And therein lies the basis of almost every immigration discussion I've ever heard.

 

[sparacus]

yeah! the poles came to this country, contribute to the economy both through taxes and businesses, do the jobs that otherwise would remain vacant and are on the whole law abiding, polite people who tend to be hard workers....get rid of them!

The problem with Polish immigrants flooding into Britain is that it will inevitably continue and increase. Poland is a grim, grey place with a weaker economy than the UK , an overbearing church and massive social problems. Was it not for the language barrier I suspect that just about all Poles would come to Britain.

 

[sparacus]

The problem will also get worse if Turkey is allowed into the EU. Who in their right mind would rather live there than in England?

 

[2-J]

yeah! the poles came to this country, contribute to the economy both through taxes and businesses, do the jobs that otherwise would remain vacant and are on the whole law abiding, polite people who tend to be hard workers....get rid of them!

That is not the whole story. To the extent that they are filling 'jobs that would remain vacant' then obviously that is a good thing for everyone in the UK. However that is a huge generalisation. On the other side of the coin, there may be positions which UK residents are not able to get because a Polish person has taken that job (leaving the UK national unemployed) OR, if the UK national is able to get the job, the influx of labour may have reduced the wages that job can command... there's as much evidence of this happening as there is of Polish workers 'just filling the jobs UK nationals don't want' (aww isn't that good of them).

Consider this also. If Poland weren't a member of the EU that wouldn't mean we couldn't allow controlled immigration of workers into sectors where it was centrally decided we actually did lack UK nationals to do the work. The problem is given that they are in the EU no such controls can be imposed and so you get the possible negative effects as well as the positive ones.

With countries with more developed economies (most of our peers in the EU up to now) immigration tends to balance out both ways in general, so the problems don't arise to an appreciable extent.

 

[Nikita]

Renaud Camus, a French writer, suffered media bashing a few years ago because lstening to the radio, a cultural show, he said "I could not help noticing that, once again, 4 of the 5 guests are jewish"

He never recovered from that

 

[Chartres]

Poland should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. The whole idea of the EU is a community of peers on some kind of equal footing (or let's invite all the African nations to join too, why not?)... if the first thing that happens when a country joins the EU is that a huge proportion of its youth up sticks and move to another country.. then something is very wrong.

I have no objection to *any* country joining the EU in principle, just that if you have these massive imbalances then you're going against what it was all meant to be about.

The higher education in Poland and some Easter European countries are generally of the same qualities as many Universities as here in Western Europe. So if the young and well educated want to come I would openly embrace them, many will probably move back one day and it will contribute to both countries.

When Poland entered the EU back in 2004 many Western countries made regulations to prevent any "work-tourism" and no country, with or without regulations, had any problems with this. Of course there's workers in every country working illegally but so it was even before they joined. Poles has since long been considered cheap labour.

However Poland's (now former) government hasn't been very successful of scoring with any Western country, they have taken a reputation of being brutes in negotiation and thereby gained far to many seats in the parliament and thereby gaining the highest parliament seat/population in the entire EU. This hasn't made the Poles very liked especially in smaller nations such as Sweden, Belgium and Austria.

 

[2-J]

The higher education in Poland and some Easter European countries are generally of the same qualities as many Universities as here in Western Europe. So if the young and well educated want to come I would openly embrace them, many will probably move back one day and it will contribute to both countries.

When Poland entered the EU back in 2004 many Western countries made regulations to prevent any "work-tourism" and no country, with or without regulations, had any problems with this. Of course there's workers in every country working illegally but so it was even before they joined. Poles has since long been considered cheap labour.

However Poland's (now former) government hasn't been very successful of scoring with any Western country, they have taken a reputation of being brutes in negotiation and thereby gained far to many seats in the parliament and thereby gaining the highest parliament seat/population in the entire EU. This hasn't made the Poles very liked especially in smaller nations such as Sweden, Belgium and Austria.

The level of skills they have is not entirely relevant. The point is the EU is meant to be roughly speaking a community of peers on a level playing field. If the first thing that happens when a country joins the EU is that people leaving massively exceeds people coming in, then there's a good case that that country shouldn't have been allowed to join the first place. Particularly because overall, as I said above, the effects can only be overall negative on the general population of the country they are moving to (any positive effects could have been achieved with some kind of strict, directed immigration quota anyway).

 

[Chartres]

The problem with Polish immigrants flooding into Britain is that it will inevitably continue and increase. Poland is a grim, grey place with a weaker economy than the UK , an overbearing church and massive social problems. Was it not for the language barrier I suspect that just about all Poles would come to Britain.

Why Britain? There are plenty of other countries here as far as I know.

 

[Jukebox Jury]

The problem will also get worse if Turkey is allowed into the EU. Who in their right mind would rather live there than in England?

Having been to Turkey four times, I'd live there happily. Fantastic weather, friendly people, love their football.
I'd settle for a nice little bar down Marmaris or Bodrum, Sky TV watching all the football, sun on my back, the daily newspapers one day behind and all the Turks speak great English anyway.....

Jukebox Jury

 

[the more you explore me!]

all the Turks speak great English anyway.....

All them bloody foreigners do, don't they like, in their culture innit

 

[sparacus]

what an arrogant position to hold. have you ever moved country? moved your entire life to set up anew? do it with little money in a country where you don't speak the language and where a portion of the community will blame you for that society's ills.

yes poland is pretty grim as it stands, unemployment is high and a large portion of the population are poor. do you deny them a right to improve their lives in a legal manner contributing positively to a society where they can?

most poles move back and with it they take new skills and a small fortune (in their terms) to which they earned by cleaning your hotel rooms, picking your fruit, driving your buses and caring for your aging relatives.

if you must find a culture to pick on, pick on one that is involved in illegal activity and promoting the destruction of this society by importing guns and drugs. don't go for the one that every right wing bland sheet uses as their scapegoat.

My point is that all Poles cannot come to the UK. There isn't room for them here. They do have a right to improve their lives, however they could try and improve Poland itself, make it a more attractive place to live. Coming here simply causes a skills drain from Poland.

 

[sparacus]

Why Britain? There are plenty of other countries here as far as I know.

Other countries place sensible limits on immigration.

 

[Chartres]

The level of skills they have is not entirely relevant. The point is the EU is meant to be roughly speaking a community of peers on a level playing field. If the first thing that happens when a country joins the EU is that people leaving massively exceeds people coming in, then there's a good case that that country shouldn't have been allowed to join the first place. Particularly because overall, as I said above, the effects can only be overall negative on the general population of the country they are moving to (any positive effects could have been achieved with some kind of strict, directed immigration quota anyway).

But there hasn't been a mass flood of immigrants and there's nothing that suggest it should. Sweden had open borders when Poland joined plus a history of work immigration but wasn't hit by this.

Why isn't skill entirely relevant? Many who are young and well educated only work abroad for a short period of let's say ten years and then they return home. There has been some competition for the domestic Universities plus their home country, which long has been isolated, has got experience from how other countries work.

One way to "prevent" a unlikely mass flood is that western countries that hasn't all ready got bonds with the east is more willing to invest and thereby creating work for the well educated.

 

[sparacus]

all the Turks speak great English anyway.....

It is a positive thing that foreigners learn English, as it is the main international language and its easier for all nations to speak one common language.
However it does make it easier for migration to the UK which is why we need sensible limits.