Why Morrissey is right on immigration!

Oh dear. Not more sixth form debating points? It's always entertaining to see those who, without a hint of irony, support borders around other countries while wishing to see the abolition of borders around the UK. I think it could be characterised as a form of self-loathing, anti-white racism so brilliantly exhibited by George Galloway.
 
Do you listen to John Gaunt each day on Talk Sport (10am - 1pm)? You sound like a regular contributor (usually London taxi drivers)

No one says anything about thousands of Brits now living in Spain, shafting the local Spanish culture, reading the Sun everyday and watching Sky Sports whilst saying 'Landan ain't Landan anymore, to many bladdy foreigners init'.

The British Empire has done more to mess around with other nations cultures than any other over the past 400-200 years, so we are getting a taste of our own medicine and it dosn't taste nice does it? We reap what we sow.

Jukebox Jury

why should my generation feel the brunt of a diluted British culture because of the past "British Empire"? Don't talk shit.
 
why should my generation feel the brunt of a diluted British culture because of the past "British Empire"? Don't talk shit.

What I'm saying is 'we' as a 'nation' (not neccessarily as individuals) cannot complain about what is going on when taking into consideration how 'our' wealth and standing in the world was achieved over all the centuries.

Jukebox Jury
 
If it was such an unmitigated disaster why were so many nations, the vast majority of whom achieved independence without bloodshed mark you, happy to maintain coinnections with the UK through the Commonwealth? When nations are a success it's "despite" colonialism and when they are not it's "because of". It strikes me some want their cake and eat it.

The greatest success story of the old Empire is ironically also the largest nation state - India. It's interesting to compare and contrast that state and Pakistan currently a single bullet away from a revolution and teetering on the brink of hideous failure. What made India a success and Pakistan an impending disaster? Surely not the Imperial past they both share and both shed at exactly the same moment in time under one banner? When will the true villains be called out on these issues? It's the rulers of these post colonial states, not those long dead. We rightly deride Brown or Blair (and others of all parties who like to do the same) for continuing to blame politicians from a decade or more ago for their failings today and yet give a pass to those elsewhere in the world based on our views of colonialism rather than fact. Mugabe is a despot. He isn't a man of the people wrestling with Zimbabwe's past for a better future for his nation. Mugabe's priority list reads "Mugabe, Mugabe, Mugabe."

The failures of many African nation states is because of the assorted lunatics and corrupt scumbags who have hi-jacked the countries, not the UK. Rhodesia was a successful and wealthy nation in 1980. Now, a generation later it has 1500% inflation and a starving population. Is that progress? Is that freedom? Going from a nation able to feed itself to one unable? I would suggest that the Zimbabwean model is the norm rather than the exception in sub-Saharan Africa and quite how that is our fault I really don't know. Botswana managed it and has established a stable democracy. The fact others can't is down to them.
 
When the new nations joined the EU it was estimated by the UK government that 13,000 people would come here from Poland alone. The actual figure is estimated to be in excess of 500,000. If a corporation had gotten its figures wrong by that amount the CEO and entire board would have to resign.

Exactly. Had they anticipated the correct number, it would have been perfectly clear that the move went against the spirt of the EU (and why countries agreed to be part of it in the first place). As it happens, the move did go against the spirit of the EU, whether anticipated or not.

Nice points about Colonialism too Augustus; it's far from clear that nations would have been better off now had they not gone through it. That is of course the easiest explanation, the only one the hysterical can bother reaching for. It is not necessarily the one that squares with the facts.

Will respond to Jeane's points later.
 
It is the same as Italian places in Little Italy hiring Italian waiters who speak italian to support that ambiance when dining.
Unlike DC where the waiters in an Italian restuarant tend to be Salvadorean or Guatamalan. :D That's the one thing I love about NYC!
 
You see a similar tale in Europe with the ex-Soviet Imperial states. Some, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic have been great successes over the last fifteen years. Others such as Belarus, Georgia, Slovakia and Russia itself have not. We don't hear too many attacking the old Soviet empire do we? But then the USSR is held up as a model by many who hate British colonialism despite having done essentially the same thing. Somehow I doubt being shot dead for protesting in Prague in 1968 is that much different to being shot dead for protesting in Soweto in 1976.

Left wing politics, eh? Don't forget your flip flops.
 
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I want to note first what we are discussing are comments attributed to Morrissey in a negative article in the NME. Without the full text of the interview we cannot be clear about what was said or meant.
From previous interviews Morrissey has shown nostalgia for a dear old England that has long since disappeared. Yet living mostly abroad it appears to me natural that he would experience change as rapid and dramatic, far more than those of us who live here and see the days pass slowly, the change more gradual for it.

Quoting London as an example is a weakness, since the large cities of Britain have always seen more immigration than the smaller towns and villages, where there are very few immigrants, proportionally. One reason is they are generally much less welcoming places for immigrants, ethnic minorities and homosexuals. Another there are simply less job opportunities there.

British culture has changed over the last 50 years. Change from industrial production to service industries, the universality of TV, celebrity obsession, consumer culture, decline of the welfare state and erosion of civil liberties. A higher standard of living for many, though not all, greater exposure to other cultures, decline of established religion, loosening of community and family influence…..I’d best not go on forever. There is good and bad, and immigration is only one part of the overall picture.

The vast majority of immigrants are people who have the energy to get up, leave their home country and try to make a new and better life for themselves elsewhere. Hard-working, bringing skills and a willingness to contribute to, as well as benefit from their adopted country.

Throughout history we see how frequently people are ready to blame the “foreigner” for social ills, whether for personal gain, fear of losing out, a religious or political agenda. They are easy targets. I find it interesting that much of the debate here has focussed on the difference between discussing immigration as a social/economic issue and racism.

At the heart of racism is a fear of losing out, socially and economically. A fear of the other and a fear of change. This is where the NME is most easily able to link Morrissey’s comments to those of the racist agenda. Not because his comments are inherently racist, but because they stem from the same anxieties about loss of identity, in my opinion.

An interview for a music paper to promote a tour may not be the best place to try to discuss such complex issues, as the scope for misunderstanding, and given the NME’s history, misinterpretation, is great. However it is important to discuss openly these matters. I remember the number of times I was accused of “Supporting Terrorism” because I insisted we should examine the motivations and beliefs of terrorists in order to understand why, and be better prepared to resist their intentions and influence.

I read your comments with interest. Despite living in a multi-national household in London I still believe I have much to learn on these issues.
 
Thier is a big immigration problem here in russia.after the soviet union collapsed thier was alot of people coming into moscow,st petersburg.what scares me is thier is gangs of so called neo nazis who go around beating them up some times killing them they even film thier attacks and post them on the internet as a way of scaring immigrants.
 
In a BBC Panorama report in 2005 it was revealed that 36% of AIDS beds in East London were taken by African nationals. Were you a second generation Briton who had worked and paid taxes all your life and were stricken by that illness would you consider if fair that your treatment could not given because some bloke turned up from Nairobi the previous week? I'm all for charity, but idiocy?

And the immigrant in question would probably agree. As they probably would on similar issues. The blame lies with the establishment who 'control' immigration in the first place. What they've setup is classic divide and rule.

So for me it is a question of who I line up with - working class people like me who've come here from elsewhere for a better life, like my parents did before - or well to do twats like Nick Griffin and his Tory friends? No contest really.
 
As an outside observer (American) who follows global news, I must say white British people really do seem to have a government and culture that hates them. Maybe they hate themselves. I don't know. Alot of dystopian news comes out of Britain, showcasing immigration/diversity run amok. From what I understand being white in the wrong part of London or Birmingham will get you beaten and robbed at the very best.

It does not surprise me right thinking British folk feel like they're under attack from all sides; the impression I get from the news confirms they are.

IMO the British opened their borders way too fast to way too many people at once. The situation there would have worked better had immigration been tightly controlled enough to allow time for everyone involved to adjust.

My 2 cents.
 
Part of the reason why I'm sick of this country is the whole 'this country's gone down the pan' mentality anyway. I know that's completely paradoxical...
 
No, I think we have a pretty good idea of what England means to Morrissey. He's been railing about it for years. Also, I don't know how old you are, but if, like me, you are at least a few decades younger than Morrissey, you ought to consider that he has seen more of England's changes than you and I. As he says, "It may be shocking to some"-- that is, to people who may remember a very different kind of England. Finally, I suppose it needs to be pointed out, although it shouldn't, that Morrissey has always loved England and hated parts of it as well. His love of country has always been qualified. One listen to "Irish Blood, English Heart" proves that. He isn't some nationalist zealot.

Sorry to go on like this. I know you have a unique perspective, being second generation yourself, but let's try and fix on exactly what Morrissey has said and not said. I've been reading Morrissey interviews for twenty years and this is, by far, the most direct and sensible statements he's ever made on subjects like immigration and racism. As he says, he is a cosmopolitan man now. He's earned the right to lament the passing away of the England of his youth.

ok, worm, i wanna be clear on this one, since i can't help wondering about you* :o

with the two statements bolded above, my fuzzy math leads me to the conclusion that you have been reading morrissey interviews since you were age ~ 8 or so (maybe even younger, since you said "at least a few decades younger"). Is that accurate?


*but, i'm sure i'm not the only one around here :D
 
ok, worm, i wanna be clear on this one, since i can't help wondering about you* :o

with the two statements bolded above, my fuzzy math leads me to the conclusion that you have been reading morrissey interviews since you were age ~ 8 or so (maybe even younger, since you said "at least a few decades younger"). Is that accurate?


*but, i'm sure i'm not the only one around here :D

How bizarre that you bothered to do the math! In fact you were right to catch me in my own sloppy numbers-- I was careless.

I'm not trying to be mysterious. I'm 33. I remember Betamax and rotary dial telephones and a time when the name "Bush" just meant a bland old bureaucrat who was the straight man to Ronald Reagan's stand-up act. The yawning void of the grave beckons for me and so on and so forth.

I read my first Morrissey interview at the ripe old age of 13. If I remember correctly it was a two-pager in Smash Hits and it was of course immensely fascinating.
 
ok, worm, i wanna be clear on this one, since i can't help wondering about you* :o

with the two statements bolded above, my fuzzy math leads me to the conclusion that you have been reading morrissey interviews since you were age ~ 8 or so (maybe even younger, since you said "at least a few decades younger"). Is that accurate?


*but, i'm sure i'm not the only one around here :D

I find it hilarious some think worm is Moz.
 
How bizarre that you bothered to do the math! In fact you were right to catch me in my own sloppy numbers-- I was careless.

I'm not trying to be mysterious. I'm 33. I remember Betamax and rotary dial telephones and a time when the name "Bush" just meant a bland old bureaucrat who was the straight man to Ronald Reagan's stand-up act. The yawning void of the grave beckons for me and so on and so forth.

I read my first Morrissey interview at the ripe old age of 13. If I remember correctly it was a two-pager in Smash Hits and it was of course immensely fascinating.

well, i was doing some thread catch-up last night (read this one through in one sitting), and the question just jumped right out at me, since those 2 age related comments were right there in the same post... if they had been scattered across posts (and certainly across threads and at different times), i doubt i could have noticed!

anyway, oh, but you are mysterious! almost as enigmatic as moz, but i for one have never thought you were moz, as others have suggested (but perhaps just in jest?!). there are far too many ways that could never be...

well, glad to finally know now, after wondering several times about your oblique references several times to "being old"...one time i think i figured by your comment that you had to be at least 40+! :p

(and please keep up the fantastic posts; it is great to have you in here.)
 
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