And that conclusion is Epic Fail on Morrissey's part.
Mike Joyce on Smiths royalties
- Thread starter vicarinatutugal
- Start date
And that conclusion is Epic Fail on Morrissey's part.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Epic Fail, yeah, but when thinking back to the behavior of the group members it's important to contextualize their actions. At that age, caught in the whirlwind of being in the best band in the world, a lot of things get lost in the shuffle. We all want to think we know better, and say that they ought to have known better, but it's difficult to recreate just how confusing that situation really was.
I was reminded of this over the weekend, watching a documentary film which capturs a true Epic Fail on the part of some unthinking young musicians-- I'm talking about the members of Joy Division, who, in the insanity that was their sudden rise to prominence, couldn't figure out that Ian Curtis was about to off himself. They had the evidence of two albums ("Closer" being a neon billboard announcing it), the details of a life unraveling right in front of their eyes, and, oh yeah, an actual suicide attempt, and they were still shocked by his death.
I'm not making fun of them-- it's tragic-- just saying that when you're young, uneducated, with no management, and suddenly thrown into fame and money like that, you probably end up doing an endless number of dumb things. They all bumbled through the business side of the band and we probably haven't heard the half of it.
kissmyshadestoo
Nobody ever looks at me twice
From the sound of the interviews with Johnny, it sounds like the pressure was too unbearable to handle and that's part of the reason he left. There was too much going on.
My view is that Morrissey was expected to be the big brother to the other members of the band. Just because he was a few years older than them and they looked up to him they expected him to have all the answers. When he didn't do everything perfectly they then felt justified in laying the blame on him for anything that went wrong.
It's strange, but I've never once read an interview with Rourke or Joyce where they acknowledge what pressure Morrissey must have been under. They always seem to focus on what he didn't do for them. I've seen one interview when Marr did actually say that the pressures on Morrissey were about four times more than on him, but only once. Most of the time with him, it's all about what Morrissey did wrong.
I don't blame Morrissey for feeling they are a load of ungrateful bastards and not wanting anything to do with them.
It's strange, but I've never once read an interview with Rourke or Joyce where they acknowledge what pressure Morrissey must have been under. They always seem to focus on what he didn't do for them. I've seen one interview when Marr did actually say that the pressures on Morrissey were about four times more than on him, but only once. Most of the time with him, it's all about what Morrissey did wrong.
I don't blame Morrissey for feeling they are a load of ungrateful bastards and not wanting anything to do with them.
Jukebox Jury
Retired
I actually do not have a close personal friendship with Mike - or even a personal friendship. I have met him on many occasions such as his and Andy's DVD launch, a couple of radio events on the station he works at (and no, I didn't go just because he was there but to see the bands that were on) and I was very fortunate to have both Andy and Mike attend my book launch last year. Oh, I also bumped into him at the bar at the Siouxsie gig in March - but that is as far as it goes.
Yes you are entitled to your opinion, it's just when your opinion is comments like Mike not even being a very good drummer and that he is ugly, well, you just make yourself look silly as they have no bearing on the case whatsoever.
As is whether or not he is a braindead coke head. It doesn't matter what he spends the money on, that is irrelevant in this case. So please, continue to express an opinion, just base it on facts relating to the case rather than stupid statements that are a waste of cyber space.
Jukebox 'The Bus Driver' Jury
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Yes, that's true. They imploded from outside pressure, which finally tore the principals apart. Given what we know now, The Smiths would've ended sooner or later anyway, but I imagine we were cheated out of one or two more studio albums, a couple of tours, and several singles. Who knows? If they could've split amicably we might have seen occasional reunions for gigs or a single here and there (just imagine, "Ouija Board, Ouija Board" set to Johnny's music!), and at the very least they would have collaborated for the much-anticipated box set by now.
Oh well. All that's history.
I've never understood why they didn't have proper management. I've read all the books and read all the interviews and it's the one blank spot in the history of The Smiths. Lots of whispering and rumors, but nothing concrete aside from Joe Moss's help in the early days. I don't think we'll ever know.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Are you joking? Their youth notwithstanding, a person would have to be deaf, blind and dumb to look at Morrissey and think, "Yeah, he's got it sorted, he's got a head for business. He'll manage us perfectly". Come on now. I would sooner put my finances in the hands of a piss-drunk Ozzy Osbourne than our dear esteemed Morrissey.
I say that to Morrissey's credit, natch.
It's quite clear from what Johnny has said that Morrissey did have more of an idea of business than the others.
He knew not to go overboard with spending, that the band should keep hold of the purse strings (apparently they paid all their crew out of their own pocket rather than let Rough Trade run things), and not to trust the money men too much. That's a hell of a lot more savvy than most pop stars have got.
How many other bands of the Smiths status from the eighties have even got any money that they can argue about? How many of them got robbed by accountants and managers?
He knew not to go overboard with spending, that the band should keep hold of the purse strings (apparently they paid all their crew out of their own pocket rather than let Rough Trade run things), and not to trust the money men too much. That's a hell of a lot more savvy than most pop stars have got.
How many other bands of the Smiths status from the eighties have even got any money that they can argue about? How many of them got robbed by accountants and managers?
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Wait a second. Are you uncharacteristically suggesting that Johnny Marr is saying something straightforward and true, without a hidden agenda to subtly shift all blame to Morrissey?
D
Dave
Guest
His comment that "the thorn will be immediately removed" is the language of extortion. He makes a statement and it opens up the whole thing again. I think we ought to just ignore him, say "Yes, Mike, that must have been terrible for you", and go listen to some NEW Morrissey songs. Joyce may have mattered at one point, and I think that's being fair, but he no longer is a factor in anything except Morrissey's list of grudges.
Joyce has managed to make himself, at worst, hated, and at best a pitiable figure. If he would have got on with his career he'd be, at least, "Drummer of The Smiths!" and now he is "the guy that tries to take Morrissey's money".
Meanwhile, Morrissey is still Morrissey, and the rest of this is just people that he used to know.
Joyce has managed to make himself, at worst, hated, and at best a pitiable figure. If he would have got on with his career he'd be, at least, "Drummer of The Smiths!" and now he is "the guy that tries to take Morrissey's money".
Meanwhile, Morrissey is still Morrissey, and the rest of this is just people that he used to know.
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moz'art girl
oh la la
Excuse me, but I think there are many more horrible figures in the world, than a guy who asks money for non-writing credit.
He did not kill his mother or father, for god's sake!!
Helen Bach
New Member
Those of us who sat through the court hearing know how much of a muddle this whole situation is.
Devotees of Morrissey refuse to believe he could be wrong.
Mike's mates say he is a decent stick who still loves Moz's music but wasn't paid properly.
Morrissey has always been reluctant to part with money, it's the way he was raised.
Mike would give you his last penny if you were stuck.
Mike's view has been cemented by a rake of judges.
Moz (rightly?) hates judges and anyone who has any kind of power over him.
I think they both have a good case.
I'm glad I don't have to decide.
But on the evidence I have seen and heard.....
... I need to think a bit more before completing this sentence...
Devotees of Morrissey refuse to believe he could be wrong.
Mike's mates say he is a decent stick who still loves Moz's music but wasn't paid properly.
Morrissey has always been reluctant to part with money, it's the way he was raised.
Mike would give you his last penny if you were stuck.
Mike's view has been cemented by a rake of judges.
Moz (rightly?) hates judges and anyone who has any kind of power over him.
I think they both have a good case.
I'm glad I don't have to decide.
But on the evidence I have seen and heard.....
... I need to think a bit more before completing this sentence...
G
goinghome
Guest
Part of an interview by Mat Snow called Soft Touch in 1989 for Q (on PassionsJustLikeMine) tallies with this angle:
Q: Do you have a personal staff ?
No, I don't have a manager. I don't have anybody who works for me at all. But occasionally I have a friend who I'll pay for a certain period when I have to do something, and he'll drive.
Q: Is it a full-time job being Morrissey professionally ?
Yes, it is, because if I'm not in the process of making an actual record, there are many other things that have to be done. I have to see lawyers a great deal; there's always ongoing court cases that I have to deal with. Currently in dispute is a case with Mike Joyce, The Smiths' drummer, and a case with Craig Gannon, who worked with The Smiths for a while. Both are claiming, as usual, percentages and so forth. Mike Joyce is demanding 25 per cent of everything The Smiths ever earned. To talk about it now would be slightly unpleasant. But in a small way it's always happened. There's always a tour manager who pops up demanding more, there's always somebody who claims to have been your manager and who is claiming more. I think it's just par for the course. All the Smiths companies are defunct, but I'm being sued as an individual, as a former director. Every day of my life I have letters from lawyers, whether it's mine or somebody else's. It's extremely depressing, but to be seen to be complaining about it is, I think, to the general public, unnecessary. I don't think they want to know about this. Certain people would look at my life now and say, How could you possibly complain compared to what you once were ? In a way that's true, but it still doesn't make it any easier to deal with the constant barrage of offensive letters. But I can't remember a period in my career when there wasn't something ongoing, somebody who had managed to get legal aid and had decided to chase you for every penny you have, and that seems to be happening more and more.
Q: Your time and energy must be severely taxed.
I don't know how I get the fortitude to deal with that kind of thing, and as a consequence, in the public sense, over the last couple of years my activities have slowed down somewhat. I've had to put so much energy into other areas. With The Smiths I had a great need to oversee as much as physically and mentally possible, and that's how my life has continued. I dislike it a great deal and wish I could find a body of people who I could work with, who were my friends but were also very strong and could deal with certain things and be with me all the time. It would make it easier to do more. But I can't find those people, which you might find slightly absurd. You either end up with the manager who wants 99 per cent of what you earn and can only see you in terms of earning and working as much as possible, which I totally despise, or you do as I do, which is deal directly with a lawyer and an accountant. -
I hadn't noticed Joyce making any donations to the Salford Lads Club recently.
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Helen Bach
New Member
I have no idea what that is supposed to prove.
Helen Bach
New Member
Lol!!
What's funny?
Helen Bach
New Member
I'm still none the wiser.
I'll put it down to my lack of cheese and onion crisps.
I'll put it down to my lack of cheese and onion crisps.
