It is Okay to be a Nationalist: Morrissey and national identity - Ramzpaul

Morrissey and national identity - RAMZPAUL

"It is OK to be a nationalist. Native Indians are nationalists. Jews are nationalists for their people. We can be the same."





Regards,
FWD.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Native Americans don't have a nation since their land was stolen from them by white Europeans, who certainly did not stay in their own country (this is not your country?), and they have lived as 2nd class or 3rd class citizens ever since, exactly like the aborigines (do you see a theme?). So don't give us this nationalist bullshit. He's just like Trump, so I don't see what he objects to about Trump. Such a shame someone so talented, who has made such wonderful, touching music (excluding the current excrement), turns out to be a vile racist.

Actually, that is not accurate. Native Americans migrated from Eurasia (parts of Siberia) through Alaska during the Ice Age. So, they are not so native to their land of North America as you imagine.

 

[Anonymous]

"There's a country, you don't live there"
But maybe you should?

But, but, but, but he's not saying anything he hasn't been saying for years.
I really think his goal is to be a well known public figure, known for causing outrage. A troll.

 

[Peanut]

Well we'll respectfully disagree about that. To my mind the Left have this almost obsessive zeal about immigration. I think folks have become obsessive about the homogenization of cultures due to the sheer numbers flooding in to some countries. Have we seen this much immigration in such a short time in the history of humanity? What did Merkel alone take in one year? Something like a million or even more? Astonishing numbers. Is that sustainable? Do the countries involved have the infrastructure in place to cope with these types of numbers? My hunch is 'no' and it is making people nervous and this creating a vacuum for which far-right parties are now starting to fill.

Maybe you're listening to other people but I don't see a popular case being made for immigration as a solution to world poverty.

There really isn't a policy of enabling mass immigration in to Europe. The point that everyone comes back to is Merkel's open invitation to Syrians in 2015, but they're ignoring that this was an exceptional, one-time response to a very specific situation and humanitarian crisis, and it was also a political mistake that cost her - she had to row back on it pretty quickly. The asylum seeker flow since then was significantly reduced. (" Angela Merkel admits she lost control of refugee crisis in Germany and would 'turn back time' if she could - 'No one wants a repeat of last year's situation' " )

I agree people should be able to voice their concerns more freely without being labelled racists for example, as it just exacerbates the situation like you say.

It cuts both ways though, and people generalising about other people based on their (nominal) religion for example is always going to lead to silliness. (Funnily enough, there is the same group of people in Muslim countries making stupid generalisations about the 'Christian' west, as if it's a monoculture.)

This is what annoys me about things like Moz's Manchester statement. He implied 'Muslims' where he very well could have said 'Islamic extremists' for example. No-one was stopping him - there was no grand conspiracy against saying this.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe you're listening to other people but I don't see a popular case being made for immigration as a solution to world poverty.

There really isn't a policy of enabling mass immigration in to Europe. The point that everyone comes back to is Merkel's open invitation to Syrians in 2015, but they're ignoring that this was an exceptional, one-time response to a very specific situation and humanitarian crisis, and it was also a political mistake that cost her - she had to row back on it pretty quickly. The asylum seeker flow since then was significantly reduced. (" Angela Merkel admits she lost control of refugee crisis in Germany and would 'turn back time' if she could - 'No one wants a repeat of last year's situation' " )

I agree people should be able to voice their concerns more freely without being labelled racists for example, as it just exacerbates the situation like you say.

It cuts both ways though, and people generalising about other people based on their (nominal) religion for example is always going to lead to silliness. (Funnily enough, there is the same group of people in Muslim countries making stupid generalisations about the 'Christian' west, as if it's a monoculture.)

This is what annoys me about things like Moz's Manchester statement. He implied 'Muslims' where he very well could have said 'Islamic extremists' for example. No-one was stopping him - there was no grand conspiracy against saying this.

Not true. Children are taught multiculturism in school, pamplets are handed out in Africa encouraging immigration to Europe, and people are discouraged from speaking out against immigrants, even if they rape someone.

 

[Sidnettle]

Actually, that is not accurate. Native Americans migrated from Eurasia (parts of Siberia) through Alaska during the Ice Age. So, they are not so native to their land of North America as you imagine.

When did I say otherwise?

 

[Sidnettle]

You missed the point. Morrissey's argument is that Aboriginals have a right to be nationalists and forge their own way forward based on their own identity and culture. If you think that the European conquest of North America was terrible, why would you support the conquest of England, Germany, or France by foreign invaders? Perhaps you are dealing with a bias of some kind.

Did I?

 

[Uncleskinny]

Not true. Children are taught multiculturism in school, pamplets are handed out in Africa encouraging immigration to Europe, and people are discouraged from speaking out against immigrants, even if they rape someone.

Evidence and links please.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry to interject, but I'm reading a whole lot of thoughtful debate here that I wasn't interested or minded enough to research on my own. I doubt I'm alone.
How is it that I'm doing this? It boils down to Morrissey's comments.
People are here discussing vitally important issues, a pop star genuinely provoking thought - something he's always promised us and is actually delivering on a grander scale than ever before.
To "fans" who claim they have been here for years and this is the final straw - you don't have to agree with him, but he seems to care far less what people think of his genuinely held opinions and to my mind at least it has become far LESS about self-promotion than in the early days of the Smiths and more about how we deal with the world.
And to think when the Smiths ended some people said he could never grow up...

 

[Bob Loblaw]

When did I say otherwise?

Here:
Native Americans don't have a nation since their land was stolen from them by white Europeans,

 

[Sidnettle]

Here:
Native Americans don't have a nation since their land was stolen from them by white Europeans,

Just like it is now the land of the white Europeans, yes. Nothing in that contradicts what you came up with.

 

[Sidnettle]

Evidence and links please.

You won't get any because it's bullshit like the Berlin rape capital of the world bollocks

 

[realitybites]

Native Americans don't have a nation since their land was stolen from them by white Europeans, who certainly did not stay in their own country (this is not your country?), and they have lived as 2nd class or 3rd class citizens ever since, exactly like the aborigines (do you see a theme?). So don't give us this nationalist bullshit. He's just like Trump, so I don't see what he objects to about Trump. Such a shame someone so talented, who has made such wonderful, touching music (excluding the current excrement), turns out to be a vile racist.

You need to educate yourself about what the definition of a nation is before you spout out such nonsense. Native Americans did and still do consider themselves to be a part of a nation(s).

What we are realty talking about is tribalism. We have been forming tribes since the beginning of existence. Even a family is a tribe. When a tribe becomes quite large with a governing body and laws and culture we call it a nation.

It all boils down to the mentally us vs. them. And who is us and why they aren't us? Every group is guilty of this. But the folks in power get singled out because they are the group with the goodies.

 

[realitybites]

.


“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”

- J. KRISHNAMURTI


just something to think about.


.

And just as tribalism is a part of human nature so is violence. I don't think either will be traits that humans will evolve to no longer possess.

Unless the geneticists can discover a way to breed them out of us, we will be stuck will them. We can change our psychology and culture but not our physical genes--yet. All three influence the way we interact with our world and each other. It is wishful thinking to believe that peace is possible in our lifetimes or even generations form now. Change is slo.................................w.

 

[Sidnettle]

You need to educate yourself about what the definition of a nation is before you spout out such nonsense. Native Americans did and still do consider themselves to be apart of a nation(s).

What we are realty talking about is tribalism. We have been forming tribes since the beginning of existence. Even a family is a tribe. When a tribe becomes quite large with a governing body and laws and culture we call it a nation.

It all boils down to the mentally us vs. them. And who is us and why they aren't us? Every group is guilty of this. But the folks in power get singled out because they are the group with the goodies.

What garbage. Morrissey was talking about nationalism. The native Americans don't have a nation. End of story.

 

[Anonymous]

I thought you blocked me ages ago? You know... after you called me a Nazi.

I don't tell you which news outlet to read or watch do I?

Dont let Skinny Gestapo tactics get to you. Be strong in the face of the SS interrogation.

 

[Layne]

'you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, hope some day you will join us, and the world will live as one'

Exactly. It sounds so nice, doesn't it? Until you wake up one day and find that you're Winston in 1984, and that living as one means that you are not allowed to have a mind of your own, and everyone has handed over absolute power to the state so that they can share equally in misery. How lovely!

 

[realitybites]

What garbage. Morrissey was talking about nationalism. The native Americans don't have a nation. End of story.

You are wearing your ignorance on your sleeve here.

 

[Anonymous]

Constitution of the Miccosukee Nation


http://www.indigenouspeople.net/micconst.htm

PLUS ONE Moz

 

[realitybites]

Moz seems exactly correct on nearly everything in the interview - other than equating animal death to genocide - though maybe one day I'll agree on that too. In our politically correct time, no one wants to admit what he said is true. We say we are a bold free thinking people but we lie to ourselves all the time. Most people know what they are possibly getting themselves into when seeking fame. The 14 year old comment was very distasteful but I have to admit he right. It is sick but we have lived in a world were 14 year olds are sexually aware for a long time. Nationalism? Black pride - good. Gay pride - good. Fat pride - good. White/Euro pride - bad? European nations have every right to keep their own cultures. We demand western culture not interfere and steal from that of others while we let European culture be destroyed. Moz defends Israel for the same reason he thinks Germany should retain its culture. Most people cannot take this. Moz defies left and right. His fans on the left are just too rabid to accept anything that is not far left.

Factory farming is not genocide. Genocide is the deliberate, systematic annihilation of a specific entity (group of people). Factory farming is the deliberate, systematic exploitation of a specific entity (group of animals). Factory farming is equivalent to slavery not genocide.

 

[realitybites]

Part of the problem, it seems to me, is that further left you go the deeper the oikophobia.

Word of the day.