track listing years of refusal

[Jamie]

I'm guessing you don't like Jesse? At this point, I couldn't care about his supporting cast, I just want the best possible music to accompany his vocal stylings. If that means recruiting Bernard Butler and Tommy Stinson than for heavens sake do it.

Well, Vauxhall, you should care somewhat about his supporting cast because the "best possible music to accompany his vocal stylings" will not be provided by Jesse. They have been a very anodyne mix so far--no reason to assume it will change. Now if somebody would be so bold as to tell Morrissey so the ship can be righted...

It's not about "liking" Jesse. I'm sure he's a nice person, but he is far and away the worst match as a co-writer for Morrissey in his entire career and his guitar skills are massively, massively overrated by a vocal contingent of the fanbase. (Granted, a number of these people could probably care less who plays for Morrissey - it's all about "The Man" for some of them.) If Alain wasn't still consistently providing great material, fine - I would have no argument. But Jesse is literally bringing next to nothing to the table compositionally. I suppose I find it as abhorrent as the earlier fans did when Whyte / Boorer replaced Marr / Street. He is overestimated (by Morrissey and some fans) certainly as much as Alain & Boz were UNDERESTIMATED for years and years, all while providing top shelf material a goodly portion of the time.

Cheers,
Jamie

 

[Maurice E]

Well, Vauxhall, you should care somewhat about his supporting cast because the "best possible music to accompany his vocal stylings" will not be provided by Jesse. They have been a very anodyne mix so far--no reason to assume it will change. Now if somebody would be so bold as to tell Morrissey so the ship can be righted...

It's not about "liking" Jesse. I'm sure he's a nice person, but he is far and away the worst match as a co-writer for Morrissey in his entire career and his guitar skills are massively, massively overrated by a vocal contingent of the fanbase. (Granted, a number of these people could probably care less who plays for Morrissey - it's all about "The Man" for some of them.) If Alain wasn't still consistently providing great material, fine - I would have no argument. But Jesse is literally bringing next to nothing to the table compositionally. I suppose I find it as abhorrent as the earlier fans did when Whyte / Boorer replaced Marr / Street. He is overestimated (by Morrissey and some fans) certainly as much as Alain & Boz were UNDERESTIMATED for years and years, all while providing top shelf material a goodly portion of the time.

Cheers,
Jamie

To be honest, Jamie, I think you're over estimating the quality of Alain's and Boz's average contributions.
If you look at the very best Boz/Alain compositions, sure, they're up there with the finest stuff Moz has sung along to, Smith or solo, and Jesse has yet to scale those heights.
However, too many of Alain's and Boz's songs have just been so-so. Some of the worst/dreariest songs on recent albums were written by Alain (Father Must be Killed, Work of Art, How can anybody know how I feel) plus tons of the mid-90's low points too (Roy's Keane, Dagenham Dave etc). And much of Boz’s recent stuff has been pretty ropey too (Slum Mums, THPGU, Noise is the best revenge).
Jesse's best songs (All You Need is Me, You Have Killed Me, In the Future, Children in pieces etc) actually stand up pretty well.
There’s not really a clear gulf in quality between the songwriters.
Moz just needs to choose the very best compositions each one can provide.

 

[Jamie]

To be honest, Jamie, I think you're over estimating the quality of Alain's and Boz's average contributions.
If you look at the very best Boz/Alain compositions, sure, they're up there with the finest stuff Moz has sung along to, Smith or solo, and Jesse has yet to scale those heights.
However, too many of Alain's and Boz's songs have just been so-so. Some of the worst/dreariest songs on recent albums were written by Alain (Father Must be Killed, Work of Art, How can anybody know how I feel) plus tons of the mid-90's low points too (Roy's Keane, Dagenham Dave etc). And much of Boz’s recent stuff has been pretty ropey too (Slum Mums, THPGU, Noise is the best revenge).
Jesse's best songs (All You Need is Me, You Have Killed Me, In the Future, Children in pieces etc) actually stand up pretty well.
There’s not really a clear gulf in quality between the songwriters.
Moz just needs to choose the very best compositions each one can provide.

It's a matter of opinion, Maurice. I think Papa Jack and Roy's Keen are nice melodies that were railroaded by bad lyrics / puns--in fact, the coda of Papa Jack is quite glorious musically. On the flip side, All You Need is Me only has the lyrics as its saving grace; Children in Pieces is virtually the same song sideways. You Have Killed Me is about the one reasonably decent tune Jesse has provided - the others you name do nothing for me. And, frankly, I much prefer The Father Who Must Be Killed and To Me You Are a Work of Art to any of them.

I would agree that Boz has been anemic in the melody department; in fact, I quite despise That's How People Grow Up all around. But Christian Dior was much better by a country mile than any of Jesse's songs to date.

Again, I think it all comes down to two main things: (1) Morrissey and Jesse would seem to be friends - or at least more social than he has been with Alain and Boz, which can be coloring his judgment; (2) he's cheaper & plays virtually karaoke versions of Smiths songs live. Sad that it has to be so, because the fans are the ones who pay. Again, nothing against Jesse as a person - just a total mismatch with Morrissey as a songwriter/guitar player.

 

[Vauxhall95]

It's a matter of opinion, Maurice. I think Papa Jack and Roy's Keen are nice melodies that were railroaded by bad lyrics / puns--in fact, the coda of Papa Jack is quite glorious musically. On the flip side, All You Need is Me only has the lyrics as its saving grace; Children in Pieces is virtually the same song sideways. You Have Killed Me is about the one reasonably decent tune Jesse has provided - the others you name do nothing for me. And, frankly, I much prefer The Father Who Must Be Killed and To Me You Are a Work of Art to any of them.

I would agree that Boz has been anemic in the melody department; in fact, I quite despise That's How People Grow Up all around. But Christian Dior was much better by a country mile than any of Jesse's songs to date.

Again, I think it all comes down to two main things: (1) Morrissey and Jesse would seem to be friends - or at least more social than he has been with Alain and Boz, which can be coloring his judgment; (2) he's cheaper & plays virtually karaoke versions of Smiths songs live. Sad that it has to be so, because the fans are the ones who pay. Again, nothing against Jesse as a person - just a total mismatch with Morrissey as a songwriter/guitar player.

"But Christian Dior was much better by a country mile than any of Jesse's songs to date."

That's a bit much. It's music so it is all subjective. Personally, I really enjoy "You Have Killed Me" and "The Youngest was the Most Loved." I also like "At Last I Am Born," so I really think their needs to be a competitive sound writing process in which the very best is culled.

 

[Danny_]

I always found Alain's stage presence far too cheesy and I hated his live backing vocals. Jesse is a much more dynamic and serious live performer. I find the live band quite exciting and powerful sounding these days. On the other hand Alain is the best writer, so I'm happy that he continues to provide music for Morrissey and hope this continues.

 

[Erik]

just for the record, I couldn't agree with you more Jamie. Ive been a fan for 21 years now and I think a lot of these Jesse fans are more recent fans.
None of my favorite Moz songs were written by Jesse. Even Alain's efforts of late are FAR superior to anything Jesse has done. I think Good Looking Man About Town is an overlooked gem. I don't even listen to the Ringleaders album too much apart from Dear God and Life is Pigsty - To Me You Are A Work of Art is nice too. It does come down to Moz as well - what is he putting on top of the music - vocal melody and especially lyrics.

 

[mozsupportsrovers]

i agree with this tottaly, alan is the better writer but fo me Jesse is better live

 

[bhops]

I always found Alain's stage presence far too cheesy and I hated his live backing vocals. Jesse is a much more dynamic and serious live performer. I find the live band quite exciting and powerful sounding these days. On the other hand Alain is the best writer, so I'm happy that he continues to provide music for Morrissey and hope this continues.

Couldn't agree with this assesment more Danny.

I think Morrissey has never been better live than with this current band. They are TIGHT (keyboardist excluded).

Alain made a lot of mistakes live and I mean a lot. He's a very likable guy and I'd also agree the most consistent co-writer Morrissey has worked with since M*** so I definately think he's got the mix right.

Alain's songs and Jesse live.

Also it interests me the amount of hate and venom some posters have for Jesse. It's like they think that Jesse must've hypnotised Moz or holds a a gun to his head, fans have to realise that it is Morrissey who chooses what goes on the record.

If they have a problem with the tunes, don't think the playing is up to par etc they only have ONE person to blame and that I'm afraid is Morrissey.

 

[Uncleskinny]

You should keep your eye on the front page. The tracklisting is coming very, very soon. It includes the two most recent compositions.

Peter

**EDIT**

Oh, all right then...


1. That's How People Grow Up
2. I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris
3. Sorry Doesn't Help
4. When Last I Spoke to Carol
5. Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed
6. I'm Ok By Myself
7. Something Is Squeezing My Skull
8. Black Cloud
9. You Were Good in Your Time
10. I'm Looking Forward to Going Back
11. I Was Bully, Do Not Forget Me
12. One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell

 

[jesuisbryony]

Oh no, just look at track one!
Keeping the pattern of having the first single near to the album's beginning.
I knew it would end on One Day.. so at last an excellent closing track!
There's not much else to say seeing as we know nothing about most of the songs.
Edit: I think Black Cloud is going to be this albums Life Is A Pigsty or ...Crashing Bores.

Thank you for keeping us informed.

 

[Uncleskinny]

Fingers crossed that "Skull" will be the second single.

Peter

 

[Kewpie]

Yay

You should keep your eye on the front page. The tracklisting is coming very, very soon. It includes the two most recent compositions.

Peter

**EDIT**

Oh, all right then...


1. That's How People Grow Up - Boz
2. I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris -Boz
3. Sorry Doesn't Help - Jesse
4. When Last I Spoke to Carol - Alain
5. Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed - Alain
6. I'm Ok By Myself - Jesse
7. Something Is Squeezing My Skull - Alain
8. Black Cloud - Boz
9. You Were Good in Your Time -Alain
10. I'm Looking Forward to Going Back -Alain
11. I Was Bully, Do Not Forget Me - Alain
12. One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell - Boz

I hope my captions are correct.



*edit*
Many thanks to Ethan and Peter.

 

[modrevolve]

Oh noes..where is "Action Man"??

wow starting off an album with Kristeen Young's wail..what is he thinking???

Can't wait to hear a studio verison of Mama..my favorite song of his since Ganglord

 

[Kewpie]

Oh noes..where is "Action Man"??

wow starting off an album with Kristeen Young's wail..what is he thinking???

Can't wait to hear a studio verison of Mama..my favorite song of his since Ganglord

Action Man will be on B-side of second single?

 

[Ben Budd]

One Day... is one of the most awful songs I have heard by anyone ever, and it's ending a Morrissey album. I feel like crying if this is true, Uncleskinny.

 

[starless]

How accurate is this listing? Is this the final selection and order?

 

[modrevolve]

So we are also missing..Its not your birthday any more, teresa teresa and when I was young for the other speculated songs..

 

[Uncleskinny]

How accurate is this listing? Is this the final selection and order?

It's from the same chap that brought us the album cover, and that turned out to be right.

Peter

 

[Vauxhall95]

I think this gives real credence to the rumor the label was unhappy with the original tracklisting and asked Morrissey to re-work the songs and come up with new material. It seems the newly discovered material written by Jesse is now on the album and some Alain tracks are now b-sides?

If it helps bolster the album, I'm all for this. I hope we get the best of all the players on the album.

You should keep your eye on the front page. The tracklisting is coming very, very soon. It includes the two most recent compositions.

Peter

**EDIT**

Oh, all right then...


1. That's How People Grow Up
2. I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris
3. Sorry Doesn't Help
4. When Last I Spoke to Carol
5. Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed
6. I'm Ok By Myself
7. Something Is Squeezing My Skull
8. Black Cloud
9. You Were Good in Your Time
10. I'm Looking Forward to Going Back
11. I Was Bully, Do Not Forget Me
12. One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell

 

[cossy]

Delighted we have the tracklisting at last and rollon Feb.

I am disappointed Thats how people grow up is on it. I dont mind the song to be honest but it has NO place on a new album. Takes the piss a bit

cossy