One American's View on Britishness

[Vauxhall95]

I will not pretend to be an expert on Britain; however I've read enough to recognize the immense impact Britain had through colonization. Britain sought to bring its people, culture, legal system, essentially its civilization to the far reaches of the globe. As we all know, there was a time the sun never set on the British Empire. As an outsider perhaps it's clearer to me, but England has its own identity which makes it beautiful and unique among the nations of the world. Now, globalization, the internet, and immigration by some who do not wish to assimilate seem to be pulling apart the very fabric of what it means to be English.

Now some would argue, and rightly so, this trend is happening everywhere: look at what NAFTA has done to traditional Mexican culture and the massive societal changes it has caused. However Morrissey, an English icon and popstar was asked about his country. He never advocated building a wall, or fencing in immigrants, he simple expressed a sentimental desire for the England he once knew. He's 48 years old. He remembers a time before free trade, the internet, etc. and wishes to no one in particular to have that feeling back.

I commend him for his honesty. However the longer this continues, this whole "debate" seems largely contrived (by both sides) as a cynical PR ploy to sell more magazines and CD's.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Well stated. Since when is nostalgia a crime, or even equivalent to racism?

One inevitable consequence of global communication, widespread international travel, and multi-national corporations is the watering down of individual cultures. Americans may have a head start on this by being inherently more flexible, but soon we will all be... exactly the same. Today, MegaBrand may decide that one logo used across the world will save them money and build their brand strength. But tomorrow, they're going to decide that they will save money by only doing business in English... and that's a slippery slope.

 

[suparni]

I am also, by no means an expert on British culture... however it was interesting to live in Sommerset for a few months, and I have visited London and I also lived in India - on a tree lined suburban street with huge houses and estates once owned by the British; there is a vibration one can still sense if one really listens and imagines as one walks those streets... but anyway...

When I lived in Sommerset I noticed many fat families. I thought "gosh, I wonder how America got such a bad 'fat' rep when these folks look much heavier on the whole?" Then I realized it is because I live in NY... but nonetheless, I did wonder at this fact - they were fat, quite fat. I was living on the edge of Exeter National Park and wandering fields and visiting tiny little shops in the nowhere town... took day trips and went to see the tor and Glastonbury and Avebury (very very cool DRUIDS!!) and Wells and stuff like that... walked to Dunster and daydreamed while walking the shore gazing over at Wales, happily cruising the narrow, winding, hedge lined roads - smiling at the sheep and the yellow fields of rape...

But one day my friend asked me to go to Tesco with him. I had not been to a big shopping place in months and I wanted to check out what kind of hair conditioner and products I could get there... And it was then that I understood why, when I came into contact with people in the big towns, I thought I felt the whiff of "fat americans" - whereas I wasn't feeling it Paris around the same time... not yet at least...

And I felt pretty strongly in my gut - there is no intellectual argument in me for it - but I felt in my gut "Tesco is the real devil here."

And it may or may not be rational or arguable but I feel Tesco and multinational corporations are the problem, not so much individuals immigrating. I feel Tesco and mass production of products - veggies, food, meat, clothing, everything... that is the real problem. Just a feeling I had one hazy dreamy afternoon at a time when I was admittedly even less grounded than I am now.

And I just heard a whole report on NPR how Tesco is coming to America to rival the grocers here... it will be called something like "Fresh Market" or something like that... great... just what we need. But anyway it does not really matter because they are all chain stores here.

My brother in law owns a family run business selling handicrafts and beads, his father ran it and my little nephew sometimes plays and helps out as best a 4 year old can there - but nobody really feels that is going to be an option for him, and perhaps that is a great thing - the store does okay now... but with home depot and target and chains like that springing up - these small businesses handed down and built up from scratch end - and with them a certain aspect of the culture is gone forever. My brother in law knows his customers by name and there is a certain homemade smell in there and when you open the door the little bell jingles... its simply not like that at target... you know what it is like at Target.

I am not saying it is a good or a bad thing, but I feel it is more the multinational corporations and huge chains that effect us most. Just a feeling I had - could be totally wrong of course

 

[yesitis]

there's a pretty interesting documentary on google video called tesco - the supermarket that's eating britain.

and if i'm not mistaken, asda (another big chain of stores in england) is now owned by wal mart.

 

[JoyDiv007]

Yes it is.

 

[suparni]

i can't find that video... anybody have a link, I searched the title but nothin. i would actually like to see an intelligent documentary explaining my uninformed gut feeling... helps me trust myself a bit more

 

[yesitis]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1381639014893922585&q=tesco&total=4476&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

 

[suparni]

^^thanks!!

 

[Dave]

Well stated. Since when is nostalgia a crime, or even equivalent to racism?

Confederate Flag prom dress

 

[Not Right in the Head]

Confederate Flag prom dress

Ouch. On so many levels.

 

[suparni]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...476&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

thanks for that - yesitis, what a fascinating program that was... I am going to watch the BBC 5 part series on photography now cause that was some pretty intense corporate reality that makes me feel contracted and confused wondering how people can even manage to think of building up such big machines? much less actually do it. The highest impact point - for me - is when they have the show of hands and every single member of the community raises their hand in opposition to the Tesco coming into their hometown. Says A LOT. Made me kind of sad.

 

[Codreanu]

They sure did!

War of Northern Aggression fact: CSA President Jefferson Davis approved a proposal that would have emancipated the slaves in return for recognition by Britain & France. Guess which country refused? (see subject line for hint)

 

[snapyou]

And I felt pretty strongly in my gut - there is no intellectual argument in me for it - but I felt in my gut "Tesco is the real devil here."

And it may or may not be rational or arguable but I feel Tesco and multinational corporations are the problem, not so much individuals immigrating. I feel Tesco and mass production of products - veggies, food, meat, clothing, everything... that is the real problem.

You are spot on there.
"supermarkets" here are full of aisle after aisle of ready -made meals,fizzy drinks,sweets and crisps.
Try to get good fresh fruit and veg or other good food and it's pitiful.

Oh,that BBC doc series on Photography is GREAT,by the way

 

[Augustus]

CSA President Jefferson Davis approved a proposal that would have emancipated the slaves in return for recognition by Britain & France. Guess which country refused?

We sided with your greatest ever President over a no mark? That makes me proud regardless of the political reasoning. Davis's middle name was "Finis" after all. You'd have thought the French would have taken that as an ill omen in itself. Zut alors!

That's the good thing about we Brits. We side with the USA, even when it isn't always in our best interests, and thankfully you lot have a propensity do the same. We both tend to see the bigger picture.

A brief wander through history shows that we on these islands have spent much of our history facing up to the French - with great success mark you - throughout the centuries. Your fact seems to underline - on a very literal level - that often if the French say black the Brits say white and vice versa.

You may want to Google William Wilberforce by the way. We don't need to take lessons on the abolition of slavery from anyone, particularly from a part of the world so famous for it's strange fruit.

 

[DipYourHeadInAVatOfGhee]

Despite not claiming to be an expert in Britishness, I thought Vauxhall95 gave it a pretty good go, a really interesting read.

I think my own thoughts on Britishness are slightly different.

As some who's lived in the UK all their life, I think Britishness is a bit of a moot concept nowadays - it's only really spoken about by politicians (the biggest parties are all unionist), exiles and, oddly enough Americans. In fact, in the US, British is often confused to mean English, and vice-versa, when there is a real distinction. (Hence the wry smiles over the 'Queen of England' often referred to in the States - technically there hasn't been one since 1603!)

I'm English-born from a very Scottish family, but I would rarely describe myself as British, nor would most/any of my friends. Simply, it's a bit of a silly term, a bit anachronistic. I genuinely think that most people my age would say they're English, Scottish, Welsh before British.

My view is that the Union is in decline - we now have a nationalist first minister and government in Scotland, Labour lost its grip in the Welsh Assembly and has had to accept a coalition with Welsh nationalists.

The real unionist party, the Conservatives, is now an almost exclusively English party, with only a minor presence in either Scotland and Wales.

In Scotland, where I've lived for a number of years, I think 'British' is basically a term used if you are explicitly Unionist, and (usually - but not always) therefore protestant. In fact I'm sure some would argue that the word 'British' has sectarian connotations, especially around Glasgow.

In England, there is increasing resentment about Scotland's relationship. There's an increasing view that too much English money is being used to subsidise Scottish public services, and the fact that MPs in Scotland can vote in Parliament on matters that are exclusively English. I think there's also a bit of resentment over the fact that there are so many Scots in the current government.

So I think even before we get onto the subject of immigration, Britain is falling apart from the inside. I don't feel particularly sad about it, it's just something that's happened. I don't think the UK has ever been a really cogent entity anyway - it's existence has always been one of practicality and politics rather than idealism. No longer having an empire to run, I don't think the forces that kept the constituent nations of the UK together are either strong or relevant anymore.

I don't see the point of artificially keeping it together for the sake of some sense of Britishness that only a fraction of the population has. The ball is rolling, the reason it's coming apart isn't because of outside forces, so much as that English, Scottish and Welsh people believe less in the Union (I mean, why else would have they voted in guys like the SNP?).

But then even if the UK does dissolve, London will still be London. Scotland won't become a republic, it'll still have the queen. Parliament will still be parliament. Tea and scones will still be around. I think you'll still get that British cultural thing even if the UK ceases to exist.

 

[girlunafraid]

no time to read all the above posts but I'm prepared to do a Q & A sesh on Britishitness coz me bloods Irish me hearts English I live in Scotland & I once spent a wet weekend in Wales! Over-qualifyied a tad you may so!

When I return I expect a myriad of Q's that will need my attention!

love

Grim

 

[cornelius blaze]

I think the idealism of the British or English culture that seems to be associated with Morrissey is far removed from the British Empire as he is simply not old enough.

I mean he hates the royal family, that isn’t very British!

We know he doesn’t have roast beef and Yorkshire pudding for Sunday dinner!

How about a full English breakfast?

Does he play cricket?

Morrissey’s Englishness is from popular culture of the 50s/60s from films and pop music (but his idols were American, James Dean, New York dolls etc.) Witty Play writers such as Alan Bennett represent fairly modern Englishness and characters in the North of England. You will still find these types people there, who will talk you into next week and tell you about their lives. The usage of Polari or ‘Palare’ is a 60s gay slang that has more or less died out. The skinhead & scooter boy images used on cd covers are from the 70s & 80s and his certain romanticism of London gangsters of the 1960s. He has chosen what he likes about British identity with in its popular culture and made them his influences, many of them are quite twee and not very common.

The landscape of the towns is changing,; the high streets now have Tesco supermarkets, McDonalds and Starbucks. That is the capitalist world we live in... It is also called progress. Cinemas would be built on high streets to be a visuable as possible and be a landmark of the town, now these are being knocked down or turned in to shops or housing, this is because of the bigger multi complex cinemas. There isn't any route master buses used by london transport anymore. The landscape of Britain is changing and always will but the identity is still there with its customs and manners of the people.

The romantic symbolism in ‘Bring me back to Camden’ are quite hallmark cards I think, & for people who are going to the Roundhouse in January. I think you will see why

 

[DipYourHeadInAVatOfGhee]

Actually reading your post Cornelius, I think I might have missed the point a bit interpreting Moz's comments.

Morrissey’s Englishness is from popular culture of the 50s/60s from films and pop music (but his idols were American, James Dean, New York dolls etc.) Witty Play writers such as Alan Bennett represent fairly modern Englishness and characters in the North of England. You will still find these types people there, who will talk you into next week and tell you about their lives. The usage of Polari or ‘Palare’ is a 60s gay slang that has more or less died out. The skinhead & scooter boy images used on cd covers are from the 70s & 80s and his certain romanticism of London gangsters of the 1960s. He has chosen what he likes about British identity with in its popular culture and made them his influences, many of them are quite twee and not very common.

I think that's as good an explanation of what Morrissey is really getting at - in fact I wish he'd worded it like that. So much for my political essay!

 

[CARDIFF CITY FC]

interesting to read 'englishness' in relation to these posts . Just to let the rest of non british people on here that Wales is a part of Britain and NOT english . Wales has it's own identity from England having it's own parliment , language and musical/industrial heritage . There is a border !

england for the english

 

[Vauxhall95]

Ouch. On so many levels.

Yes, let's start with the sad fact that the picture was apparently taken in 2004! Holy shit!!