How did you meet Morrissey?
Around about 1977 some older musicians - who'd by then had just left school so they could form groups full-time - had a go at forming groups and came into contact with Morrissey. I hung around these people; I hung around these groups. And he made a real impression. I'd never met him, but I'd seen his words and I'd heard tapes of him singing with me friends bands. And all these groups only lasted a week or two. So I knew all about him. This constantly fascinates him. I suppose it would me, if someone did it with me... And then it took until five years later, 1982... I'd got to a point where there was a certain kind of music that I was completely hung up on and I wanted to reproduce. And I was totally influenced by it. And I felt completely alone because, on the face of it, it was seen as being perverse at the time. It was - and still is - every song Goffin & King ever wrote. Lieber & Stoller... I mean, this is why The Smiths formed. Because I was very into the Red Bird label. We're talking about '81, '82 now... I was hanging out in my friends shops. I was DJing in a fashion every night in clubs. And it was a very cool, healthy scene. By then Morrissey had already done that a few years before. He'd been out to clubs and seen friends and so on; you know, he's about five years older than me. So I was doing it in the early 80s. And there was no one really, not even me friends, who could understand the Drifters, or the beauty of Sam Cooke songs. Obviously I felt very cool about it, like I had my own little elite. But I did want to form a group that pledged allegiance to Lieber & Stoller and the Red Bird label and Phil Spector and the girl groups.
Why did you think a collaboration with Morrissey would work? It was a bit of a risk.
Well, I'll tell you why. By then I had written a lot of songs and gotten into the idea of crafting songs in the same way as Leiber & Stoller had, and this overt emphasis on melody and overt emphasis on finishing it by three minutes and the look and the whole thing. And a massive element of what made us form was the Brill Building. This really straightforward, mercenary attitude toward songs. No pissing around, no hanging out in Laurel Canyon for a few months going (sarcastic) "I don't really quite feel like playing this song ". I'd gone through that kind of artistic trip and I was very into being mercenary, and very business.
I don't remember how many stories The Brill Building is, but it was just stall, piano, stall, piano -
Exactly!
Playing until the songs came out! Goffin & King, as you said...
Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry. Perfect! I used to think it was so cool, that - the Shangri-Las and Shadow Morten's production. To hear (sings) "Let's drink a toast..." Glasses chime. [Johnny is referring to the Shangri-Las track 'Long Live Our Love' - BB] Obviously 'Leader Of The Pack's' a really great example. You've got the motorcycle in the studio and all that kind of thing. It was more than a single, a seven-inch piece of plastic. The song started, it had a great middle, a great break and a great end. At the time when I was into that, no one was into that at all.
Most of your songs are very fast. I mean, timing wise. There are no six-minute epics here. They're all three, three-and-a-half minute tunes.
Exactly. Which is starting to become less and less extraordinary. I'm not saying we're responsible for it, but certainly in England we've helped that along the way. There hadn't been a two-and-a-half minute single in the English charts until The Smiths came along. And we were really put down for it. But I thought that it was actually something amazing, to be able to say what you've got to say in two-and-a-half minutes. 'William, It Was Really Nothing' was the first Smiths song I wrote with a real emphasis on keeping it under two-and-a-half minutes. And what was great about it being my very first attempt at a very short, snappy Smiths single wasn't just that I made it short for the sake of it. It was that everything I wanted to say musically, and everything Morrissey wanted to say lyrically, was said in two-and-a-half minutes.
Steve was known in Manchester as Steve the nutter.
Yeah, that's right. Which attracted me to him no end! I was fascinated by this guy. Going back to Leiber and Stoller, this guy who I used to work for gave me a video of a Leiber and Stoller interview that was on a programme called The South Bank Show. And I was watching this video, and they explained how they met. And I think with Mike Stoller, he knew of Jerry Leiber, or vice versa, from school, and he knew that he wrote music. One or the other... And he just thought, right, if this guy doesn't know me I'll go and knock on his door and say, let's write. So the very next day that's exactly what I did. I phoned up a guy I hadn't spoken to for ages and I said, do you remember that guy Morrissey? Steven Morrissey. Do you remember him? And he said, yeah. I said, give me his address. I went round - didn't even know whether he was gonna be in or if he still lived there - knocked on the door... And before he had a chance to say go away I said: I'm a guitarist, I want to form a group, I need a singer, I don't know whether you've heard of me... And he let me in. Then it was a test; both of us were testing each other. He said, what do you like? And it was like, do I say what I think I should say or do I just tell him what I like? Because I thought what I liked was exclusive to me. So I said, Marvelettes, Shang-ri Las, The Cookies, The Toys. Records like that. Phil Spector, Ronettes... Which just wowed him. And then he played me some Marvelettes records which I hadn't even heard before. And he was absolutely perfect. It really clicked because we forged our relationship on a professional basis from the word go, expecting nothing personally. And then within about three weeks it had turned on its head and we became closer than I had been with anybody else whilst still maintaining that massive professional decorum. And we decided that we were going to be great and that we were going to write the best songs of all time before I'd actually heard him sing proper, before he knew if I could really play. And we had all our grand schemes worked out. I can relate it now because it actually happened. I mean, we could have been chumps but it actually... we knew what we wanted to do. And the thing is, we were totally uncompromising. And I still do feel this now. When people get a sniff of fame they start to worry about conventions and the norm and so on. All the way down the line we were expecting to be massive, but we accepted we wouldn't be accessible and that people wouldn't understand us.
We know what the last names of all four members are. There is no 'Smith' involved here. Why was this chosen?
At the time that we formed our musical politics were so strong. And the name was really, really central. Also, when we formed and we wrote all these songs obviously the idea was to form a group, but we thought that if we coudn't find anybody perfect then we'd... We had this grand scheme of writing songs for people like Sandie Shaw - which we eventually did. And our idea was, in the building in which I used to work - which used to belong to the guy who ran the shop, who managed the group, who paid for everything, right along to the day we set foot for the very first time in America, which was the end of '82, the start of '83 - we wanted to turn that place into the Brill Building. So the very first idea - because we didn't really think about a group as such - we thought, well, we'll write stuff in there, demo it, and we'll find some girl singers like Lesley Gore. The Manchester equivalent of Lesley Gore. And we'd be our own Leiber and Stoller. And that's what we wanted to do. But it was decided we wanted to form a group. So I went back and I recruited Andy. Which was very weird because, at that time, I'd left him where I'd left off - he was still very into Neil Young and Joni Mitchell and so on. But also very into people like Ronnie Laws and David Sanborn and people like that, very into jazz. So I said, I want you to join the group, and I want you to be totally clean because this is part of our manifesto. And by the way - I'm vegetarian! And listen to this. And I gave him a crash course in all these sounds I'd gotten into over the year when I'd not seen him. And I played him the Drifters. And he couldn't understand it! He said, this is music my parents like! And I played him The Shangri-Las and he just couldn't understand that... But it didn't take too long for him to get into it. So Andy and Mike were recruited really quite quickly, within the space of a couple of weeks of each other.
Where did the name come from?
Before we'd even recruited Andy and Mike, Morrissey gave me a piece of paper with about four names on it. I can't remember what the others were but 'The Smiths' was written really huge - obviously it was the one he was hoping I'd pick. Now, we were reacting against everything. I mean, people were called Orchestral Manoeuvres in The Dark then. (ponders) And what other names were there ...? You know, very, very clever names. So we just thought, what was the most un-rock'n'roll, unglamourous... Morrissey takes the credit for it. I mean, it's his baby. But it was very much a part of what we were about. 'The Smiths' just seemed like such a mundane, normal... Imageless. What was very, very important for us was to have a name which, when people saw it, didn't say anything. Blank! They didn't know what the hell we were going to play! Because names had become too image orientated.
I can remember when the group first started, well, the first American exposure. Things like the necklace, the hearing aid, the flowers in the pocket...
And the glasses.
Well, he's nearsighted as hell!
He is, yeah! Have you talked to Morrissey? Have you met him?
No.
He's an interesting cat... The flowers, for a long time, played a big part in our performance. Not only would Morrissey use flowers on stage, and the band would go on holding them, but the audience would bring flowers and throw them at the group. And that was so un-rock'n'roll and so new that in England we were viewed as very arrogant nerds. 'Nerd' would be the way to explain it over here; 'Twit' would be the way to explain it in England. It was a real stand for the twits. But not like twits who didn't know anything. That was the smart thing: we were manufactured 'twitdom'. Nerddom. And it's something which is very important if rock'n'roll is gonna move on.
The personification of this is somebody like Elvis Costello.
In essence, it's very similiar to the way Buddy Holly liberated a lot of teenagers.
Because nobody wore their glasses!
Exactly! Especially on stage... It was very important to us to do things which weren't rock'n'roll.
The bidding war started after probably six gigs, and Rough Trade won out. But the biggest break you guys ever got was probably John Peel.
Oh, of course! And it's something which we credit endlessly. Because what the Saturday Club was to British bands in the 60s, the John Peel show is that - and much, much more. Because John Peel and John Walters are very fanatical about music. And they're the only people in this horrible, big, conservative establishment called the BBC who actually put their arses on the line for groups. And one wouldn't expect it of guys so grounded in traditional... Well, John Walters, who's John Peel's producer, was actually responsible for getting us on the show. He's very grounded in blues, and jazz in particular. Give those guys credit: they knew something new and important when they heard it. It was a big break for us.
'Hand In Glove', which we didn't get for a long time over here, was the first single. Tell me a little bit about 'Hand In Glove'.
I think it was about the eighth or ninth song we wrote. And at that time we were doing something which all groups should do, and that's play four or five times - well, it's obviously easier when you first start - we played four or five times, nearly every weekday, in the room upstairs where I used to work. And we played and played and played. And we had a set together. And I remember 'Hand In Glove' coming along - I thought it was the strongest melody Morrissey had written to date. And I also thought they were the most important words he'd written to date. And we believed in that song so much we played... The first couple of times we played it, we couldn't believe it and we thought, right, we've now got our single. So we went in and recorded it. So we had it on tape. And we went to Rough Trade and Geoff wasn't around - he was busy - and someone gave me the run around... And I saw him in the kitchen - he was getting a cup of tea. So I grabbed him and gave him the cassette. And he was trying to give me the brush off. And I said to him, this is the deal: either we're gonna form our own label and put it out through Rough Trade distribution or, if you like, you can sign the group - which is what we wanted. And a couple of days later he phoned up and said, I've listened to the song and I love it, and we'd love you to be a Rough Trade group. So we signed a one single deal. But having a fairly decent knowledge of the way the music business and music press operated we then set out to let everybody try and sign us up. All the time knowing that there was no way... It was very, very important that we didn't go on a major label, especially at that time. And consequently, the British independent scene's become -
Huge.
It was huge, and now it's a complete farce. But at the time it was very important for us to do it. We were very lucky to be able to be as idealistic as we wanted. Because when you've got a song that you believe in wholeheartedly, and you don't care if the rest of the world like it, as long as you see it on a piece of vinyl then that's a very fortunate situation to be in. We've not had anybody tampering with it, we've not had people advising us to put this out, or put that out, do this move, do that... We knew exactly what we wanted to do all the way down the line. And that song was very, very important for us.
'This Charming Man' followed that, with great success. Who is 'this charming man'?
I've no idea. I've no idea. I really don't. I think that's a really flummoxing lyric. Great song. That was the start of Morrissey being a truly wonderful vocalist.
I want to get into the Terence Stamp thing. 'What Difference Does It Make?' - I know that Morrissey was a Terence Stamp fan, I know he has his rootings in a lot of people like James Dean, and a lot of other folks. Were you surprised over the controversy over the use of that sleeve?
Extremely. Since then we've had much more controversy, and we've had a lot more difficulty with sleeves. But it was very odd that Terence Stamp should do that because it was a very inoffensive sleeve. I can understand in a way because, you know, it's part of his past and it's like, suddenly, somebody pulls out an old photo from his photo album. And maybe he regards himself as not looking too good - and then someone puts it on the cover of their record sleeve! I can understand him being confused as to why a pop group have done that. But he made such a fuss about it. And it wasn't actually worth it. It was only a sleeve. He didn't understand where we were coming from, he really didn't understand. That clip, that actual photo, isn't even in the movie. That's an outtake, that photo. And it wasn't an outtake because he looked particularly ugly. It was a great sleeve, really good sleeve. But that did cause quite a lot of hassle. He didn't need to get that uptight about it. We weren't really that well-known.
The lyrics that you've done over the years, and the music that you've created, range from being a vegetarian all the way to the Moors murders. The social consciousness that you've built into the music... You wouldn't have it any other way, right?
No, we wouldn't have it any other way. Because it a really important part of the way music should move on. We would have done it regardless, but now we find ourselves in a position where these things become critically important and these ethics become critically important to other people. Whereas when you first start a group your ethics are totally applicable to yourself. And then you move on. And you've actually turned a lot of people on to these ethics, and you want to move on and they don't. So you do find yourself in a position of responsibility because of what you've created. And I'm really, really proud of it. I'm very proud of it. It's the inspiration of two people who are very different - Morrissey and meself. When it works. It's a really explosive situation but that makes for creativity and it creates something really special. And the movie element was something I would never have involved in a group. It just wouldn't have occured to me. I wasn't a huge British movie fan; I was more a fan of American movies. But it's something now which is crucial. That kind of thing, that outside rock'n'roll theme, is very crucial if rock'n'roll is gonna grow up.
The perfect title is How Soon Is Now?.
Yeah. Which is a great phrase. 'How Soon Is Now' is a great phrase. Because it's obviously "I Want It Now"! How fast can you do it?... That was a very important song for us. It was an important song for me because I have two very strong influences pulling at me, both ways. One is as a guitar player and the other is as a writer. And 'How Soon Is Now' satisfied both elements. Perfectly for me, while still giving something to Morrissey which he could really work on and add his fifty percent to.
'The Boy With The Thorn In His Side' was, again, damned short! Number 49 here in the States.
It seems you have to be put in some kind of category. You see, the thing with us and the label [Sire], I do understand the kind of the difficulties they have with us. But that's their problem.
Everyone has a thorn in his side. Everyone has that angst of adolescence or has that soapbox that they want to jump on.
'The Boy With The Thorn In His Side' is about us. Well, Morrissey specifically. The thorn is the music industry. If you listen to the words, "how can they hear me say those words and still they don't believe me"... By the time we'd written that song, we'd been put down so much for our beliefs, in the music industry, we'd been put down for all these things that we said were dead. And then we did 'The Boy...' and it was a real pleasure that people who were actually responsible - people who were the 'thorns' in our side - were actually buying this record and championing it in the music industry. It's about all the bigotry and idiocy in the music business really. And how a lot of people who are in a responsible position actually don't know squat.
Part of that... crap that they gave you was because you said: Videos? I'm sorry, no. No. That is not what music is.
Exactly! And we feel that is very understandable and straightforward. We're made to feel like we're misfits, and we're made to feel that we're very, very difficult cos we won't do a video. And at the end of the day we really do feel that's the way the business is. The business is at fault and not us. We're musicians; we don't pretend to be actors. And we don't pretend to be directors. And I wish more musicians would... I'm sure musicians actually do feel this way, they feel exactly the same as us. But because they're told that, they're not allowed to do it. They just back down. And if all the groups actually wised up and realised that they're the ones who are making the bread, and instead of walking into a label, or a venue and saying like, oh my God! It's so good to be here. This is historic!, with some fat guy with a cigar who's counting all the books, you know - we'll do it for free... Musicians should just realise that they call the shots.
Not only that, look at how much a video costs. And it comes out of your profits!
Exactly, exactly... (laughs) You should be a manager. This is the problem we have.
What was the royal reaction to 'The Queen Is Dead'? Cos this is gonna kick up the dust a bit!
Yeah, it did. When it came out one thing that pissed me off was that the music press saw it as - well, they pretended to see it as being, OK, yeah, The Smiths are going for another shot at upsetting the apple cart and kicking up some controversy. But it's actually a really ridiculous political scene in England because of the Queen. Royalty is a very strong issue in England. Not because of the Queen, but with young people it's become more and more irrelevant because it's impossibly naive to believe that we can still be ruled by a monarchy.
When will the new album be out?
It'll be out a lot sooner than Warner Brothers want it to be out. They don't want it to be out too soon. And I understand that. I want 'Louder Than Bombs' to do well, I want it to sell well. But we did an album which is very, very important to us. We regard it as being our best album. It's called 'Strangeways, Here We Come', and it's got ten great new songs on it. I've got to say that there are a couple of songs on there - and I do feel qualified to be able to say this - which are Morrissey's best words. The greatest words he's written.
What's the upcoming projects? What's the future?
The future is to come over here with the new material. We're waiting on the new albums release because the audience have got to know it. We're not here to promote, we're not coming over to promote the new album. We wanna play, but all the group wanna play is the new material and some of the old material which we really like to play. Bits of 'The Queen Is Dead', maybe 'Shakespeare's Sister', 'Ask', 'Panic'... What made it difficult on the last tour, we started the set with 'Panic', and 'Panic' had not been heard here. But we're gonna do the same with the new album. We'll come over here and we'll start off with songs people don't know.
What will the first single be?
It'll be a song called 'Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before'. (laughs) Right on!! Morrissey! Yeah.
The oldest comedy line in the world, right?!
Yeah! Exactly, exactly... He's brilliant, he's marvellous. I miss him. I haven't seen him for a week and I really miss him.