New Morrissey interview on Greek website LiFO (July 4, 2012)

Re: Morrisseys' new interview in greek website 4.7.2012

http://www.lifo.gr/mag/features/3314

I am not good is Greek-English translations but one question and its answer is of great interest.

Q:Why do you dislike so much morrissey-solo.com ?

A: I don't like the fact that a site using my name is clearly about the Smiths and not for Morrissey.
This site highlights negativism or even more,it is looking for it, a thing that annoys most of people I know.
So,it has become a vechicle for Morrissey haters and no one I know visits this site anymore.The owner claims
that this is an open forum but since everyone posts under the name "Anonymous" how can this be considered open?
The owner of this site approached my former manager last year,saying that all the negative stories would be ended,
if I would pay him 3000 dollars per month.I think this talks by itself.

(This translation is not good because it was made from english to greek and from greek to english,but this is the basic story anyway.)

I believe that his answer explains a lot of stuff going on here...

 

[Worm]

oh and more importantly
Morrissey's largely bad output of new music and increasingly odd/negative statements have lead to the current deplorable situation here

I don't think this can be overlooked. It's a factor. I wouldn't go so far as to call his current output "bad", as some of it's very good. But he's without a record deal and there's a general malaise surrounding him as an artist.

 

[Worm]

If someone came on and said "f*** Morrissey-solo.com", you could certainly say he's 'being a dick' and therefore should be banned. I say no, go ahead and say it, tell me how you feel. Don't say it repeatedly, or else it gets in the way of the flow of discussion. People give vague examples that the whole site is dominated by 3 people but I ask for specific examples of violations and no one can actually give any. I think it's unrealistically wanting a utopia of an open forum but the real nature actually comes out. They actually are more conservative than they would admit - they don't want to read opinions that differ from their own. Individuals and now anonymous users can be added to their own ignore list if they choose, but they don't want to use that. They don't want to say it but what they really want is greater censorship for posts they deem are below their own standards and so should be blocked for everyone else also.

It's helpful for you to articulate this, David. Wouldn't you agree that you are just as interested in creating a website, per se, as you are about creating a Morrissey fan site? I have always perceived it as an attempt to create something interesting on the web, taking advantage of web-specific technology to create a fan community (social networking before the Facebook era) and accepting all of the downside, whatever it may be. To understand Morrissey-Solo it's necessary to contextualize it within the web as a whole, and I think many fans don't grasp this. They see it as a site started by a fan which went horribly wrong somehow. In fact, I think you took a particular model of a website community, one in which you had a largely technical interest, and then applied it to an artist you liked. Is that fair to say?

I'm not criticizing or diminishing your accomplishment, which is extremely impressive, but I think it could be helpful for some to understand what this site is really about. It's more of a Web 1.0 environment, by which I mean it is sophisticated technically but more of a throwback to the wild west era of the web. In the last ten years or so the web has changed and become much more manicured and orderly, for better and for worse. It's a fascinating shift.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

I don't think this can be overlooked. It's a factor. I wouldn't go so far as to call his current output "bad", as some of it's very good. But he's without a record deal and there's a general malaise surrounding him as an artist.

thats why I said "largely" or perhaps I should have said "apparently"
also, I was just thinking, in the times I have wandered online from Solo to websites "dedicated" to other artists
well, if I said anything bad about one of their songs or read such from others
then those people, or me, got jumped on by others that included the admins of such sites
I do not like this, thats why I still like Solo
however, need the price of such freedom be also this place being filled to bursting with the steady drone of personal attack driven posts by a very few number of posters?
I think not, but thats just my opinion

 

[Worm]

however, need the price of such freedom be also this place being filled to bursting with the steady drone of personal attack driven posts by a very few number of posters?
I think not, but thats just my opinion

Well, that's the question here. I've taken my lumps and survived. When all's said and done I prefer the freer environment to the nanny state version.

David's principle seems to be very simple and straightforward. As long as you don't violate the rules-- and the rules are scaled-back and only really apply to extreme cases-- there's total freedom here. He seems willing to let in some bad apples in adherence to that principle. I'm okay with that. But there's no question it has taken its toll on the site, certainly in terms of the number of people who want to discuss Morrissey without childish name-calling and pointless bickering.

It should be remembered that the problem seems to be in the main discussion forum. The other aspects of the community, like file sharing, tour reports, and collectibles, seem robust.

 

[Cornflakes]

Many here make it sound like the mods and I have not been doing anything at all.

Au contraire. You've been doing crap like this.

 

[Uncleskinny]

Au contraire. You've been doing crap like this.

Nope. That was me being indignant. Being a user, like anyone else, being indignant. Nothing to do with David.

Apologies if I missed the intended point.

P.

 

[Cornflakes]

When all's said and done I prefer the freer environment to the nanny state version.

But no-one has mentioned hiring a nanny. There's a problem with confusing freedom and chaos.

A forum that encourages the free and frank exchange of views and information is a good thing. A forum that is happy to provide a platform for unreformed playground bullies who've grown too socially isolated to pick on flesh and blood people is not.

 

[Worm]

But no-one has mentioned hiring a nanny. There's a problem with confusing freedom and chaos.

A forum that encourages the free and frank exchange of views and information is a good thing. A forum that is happy to provide a platform for unreformed playground bullies who've grown too socially isolated to pick on flesh and blood people is not.

Fair point. But this isn't a playground. On a playground you don't have any remedy except attacking the bully or avoiding the playground altogether. Here you can do some other things to shield yourself from the bullies. In fact it's pretty easy. And whatever bullying goes on doesn't erase the conversations "the good people" have with the other "good people". The playground/smiler's fog horn analogies aren't quite accurate.

 

[davidt]

It's helpful for you to articulate this, David. Wouldn't you agree that you are just as interested in creating a website, per se, as you are about creating a Morrissey fan site? I have always perceived it as an attempt to create something interesting on the web, taking advantage of web-specific technology to create a fan community (social networking before the Facebook era) and accepting all of the downside, whatever it may be. To understand Morrissey-Solo it's necessary to contextualize it within the web as a whole, and I think many fans don't grasp this. They see it as a site started by a fan which went horribly wrong somehow. In fact, I think you took a particular model of a website community, one in which you had a largely technical interest, and then applied it to an artist you liked. Is that fair to say?

I'm not criticizing or diminishing your accomplishment, which is extremely impressive, but I think it could be helpful for some to understand what this site is really about. It's more of a Web 1.0 environment, by which I mean it is sophisticated technically but more of a throwback to the wild west era of the web. In the last ten years or so the web has changed and become much more manicured and orderly, for better and for worse. It's a fascinating shift.

I agree with your sentiments here, yes, I am interested in many aspects of running a website apart from the Morrissey-specific content. I work in the industry and read about often and am always open to new ideas / suggestions. As you mentioned yes, I see the bigger picture, I don't feel what I am exploring here is just about Morrissey fans but online communities in general. Does a change make things more orderly at the sake of becoming extremely dull? Is it worth the trade-off? I want to hear ideas on improvements.

I just did a complete redesign of the site a year and a half ago so not everything is perfect but it is much improved since and continues to improve I believe. I am up to seeing new sites come up and welcome the challenge. That is what's great about the internet, if someone doesn't like what they see here they can build their own site, go somewhere else, or come here and express what they don't like.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

Nope. That was me being indignant. Being a user, like anyone else, being indignant. Nothing to do with David.

Apologies if I missed the intended point.

P.

apology accepted



ps: though to be fair, the worst stuff posted in this thread was definitely not by you

 

[Worm]

I agree with your sentiments here, yes, I am interested in many aspects of running a website apart from the Morrissey-specific content. I work in the industry and read about often and am always open to new ideas / suggestions. As you mentioned yes, I see the bigger picture, I don't feel what I am exploring here is just about Morrissey fans but online communities in general. Does a change make things more orderly at the sake of becoming extremely dull? Is it worth the trade-off? I want to hear ideas on improvements.

I just did a complete redesign of the site a year and a half ago so not everything is perfect but it is much improved since and continues to improve I believe. I am up to seeing new sites come up and welcome the challenge. That is what's great about the internet, if someone doesn't like what they see here they can build their own site, go somewhere else, or come here and express what they don't like.

Thanks for elaborating.

This discussion interests me because your statement ("That's what's great about the internet...") is an old school philosophy. It gets to the heart of the matter, which is an open question about what the web can and should be. There are ideas behind a lot of websites and communities of users. They're not just random. I find that many people who take an interest in the web itself, whether for work or play, tend to try and uphold a basic concept of democracy and freedom. The point of the web is not to have a hierarchy, but instead a flat, horizontal exchange between equals. In a way, the webmaster should be the least important person on a site, or at least for a site like this. Some users don't see it that way, but for me it's a very important distinction, because what goes on here has more to do with a specific philosophy relating to the web and less to do with worshipping Morrissey. The confusion is understandable, I guess, but regrettable nevertheless.

 

[davidt]

Thanks for elaborating.

This discussion interests me because your statement ("That's what's great about the internet...") is an old school philosophy. It gets to the heart of the matter, which is an open question about what the web can and should be. There are ideas behind a lot of websites and communities of users. They're not just random. I find that many people who take an interest in the web itself, whether for work or play, tend to try and uphold a basic concept of democracy and freedom. The point of the web is not to have a hierarchy, but instead a flat, horizontal exchange between equals. In a way, the webmaster should be the least important person on a site, or at least for a site like this. Some users don't see it that way, but for me it's a very important distinction, because what goes on here has more to do with a specific philosophy relating to the web and less to do with worshipping Morrissey. The confusion is understandable, I guess, but regrettable nevertheless.

Good points. The idea of a flat, horizontal exchange between equals is exactly what I want to achieve. I feel it is a bit arrogant for some to think their opinion is greater than others.

 

[Worm]

Milton's always good on this subject:

"Another sort there be who when they hear that all things shall be order'd, all things regulated and setl'd, nothing writt'n but what passes through the custom-house of certain Publicans that have the tunaging and the poundaging of all free spok'n truth, will strait give themselvs up into your hands, mak'em & cut'em out what religion ye please; there be delights, there be recreations and jolly pastimes that will fetch the day about from sun to sun, and rock the tedious year as in a delightfull dream. What need they torture their heads with that which others have tak'n so strictly, and so unalterably into their own pourveying. These are the fruits which a dull ease and cessation of our knowledge will bring forth among the people. How goodly, and how to be wisht were such an obedient unanimity as this, what a fine conformity would it starch us all into? doubtles a stanch and solid peece of frame-work, as any January could freeze together."

 

[nothappynotsad]

thats why I said "largely" or perhaps I should have said "apparently"
also, I was just thinking, in the times I have wandered online from Solo to websites "dedicated" to other artists
well, if I said anything bad about one of their songs or read such from others
then those people, or me, got jumped on by others that included the admins of such sites
I do not like this, thats why I still like Solo
however, need the price of such freedom be also this place being filled to bursting with the steady drone of personal attack driven posts by a very few number of posters?
I think not, but thats just my opinion

Somewhere, the 2006-2008 version of you is laughing at this. You know, the one who made fun of a kid for being Christian, posted private information he confided in you about his brother dieing, called him a high school dropout, and told him he should either end his life or be committed to a mental institution.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

^there is about as much truth in the above as the notion that David T asked Moz for $ to stop negative stories on this site

 

[Kewpie]

Somewhere, the 2006-2008 version of you is laughing at this. You know, the one who made fun of a kid for being Christian, posted private information he confided in you about his brother dieing, called him a high school dropout, and told him he should either end his life or be committed to a mental institution.

^there is about as much truth in the above as the notion that David T asked Moz for $ to stop negative stories on this site

You two, go to the pigsty.

 

[Anonymous]

^there is about as much truth in the above as the notion that David T asked Moz for $ to stop negative stories on this site

So it's true then? wouldn't have figured you for that kind of behaviour, Robby. you seem like a decent guy.

 

[Luke Action McClure]

This thread is a good read and good points have cropped up amid the ridiculous repetition. I think both Morrissey and DJ Dear Quentin (is that really his name? How does one go about addressing him in a letter?) knew that the question and answer would cause a stir on here.

I feel that this site is a positive one that champions Mozz's career, but that some posters, or some threads are generally negative. As has been mentioned, surely anyone who expects otherwise is delusional.

I have noticed that some 'positive' users have brought up the issue of being belittled and feeling less-than when their 'positive' views (e.g Morrissey's post '94 work is good) are contradicted by frequent users, moderators, and anyone who generally doesn't agree. I get where these people are coming from as I myself have also felt that in the past - only yesterday whilst driving I was thinking how much I liked 'The father who must be killed' only to remember about a number of people on here saying how bad it was. However, that these people's comments affected me says far more about ME than it does the website... it would be very dull if everyone thought 'The father who must be killed' was a great song. I am a sensitive person, and thus when something as petty as an internet message board user disagrees with me, it affects me, slightly. I have never been directly insulted here (I'm fairly new and conservative), and so cannot comment on how that must feel.

The website, to remain the best Morrissey based internet forum, has to stay as it is. I think a lot of people need to learn to accept the feelings that arise from the 'negativity', and then move on. Obviously direct abuse is deplorable, but whilst the abusers sit in the safety of their bedsit, the abused should not take it out on the website.

New songs are good, only good, and a lot better than other rubbish that's out.
Jesse is cool, I like his heaviness, but preferred Alain.
Boz IS fat, but so what? He's still Boz Boorer!
Costumes - meh, whatever.
Drag - ditto.

I am sorry if this has merely repeated what others have said, albeit in layman's terms.

Peace, love, and harmony. Maybe in the next thread...

 

[Anonymous]

One thing that bothers me about this discussion is that it proposes only 2 possibilities: stay the same or become boring like allyouneedismorrissey. David T clearly wants there to be only 2 options but that simply is wishful thinking. If you expand beyond English speaking forums and, for example, visit the primary French site devoted to Morrissey you see a group that has lively discussion but without the nastiness found here. Are the French simply better people than English speakers?

http://morrissey.forumactif.com/f2-cliquez-ici-pour-parler-de-morrissey

 

[Cornflakes]

That is what's great about the internet, if someone doesn't like what they see here they can build their own site, go somewhere else, or come here and express what they don't like.

I think that's more like what some people fifteen years ago imagined the Internet might one day be like. You let it go its own way and have faith that it will develop into a certain sort of neoliberal utopia. But it didn't. It actually amplified the real world phenomenon of market dominance. Accordingly, this site enjoys a dominant position. Unless it really, really f***s up, it's almost impossible to compete with, regardless of how good a job it does. So, the site should aspire to offer the best product it can, because nobody else is going to do it.

What philosophy of Internet the site wishes to follow ought not to be a consideration here. It's just a question of which decisions will improve content quality and which will make it worse.