have you guys given up moderating the boards?

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

Oh, absolutely I am.


Although how anyone averaging 13.08 post a day on an internet message board can describe anyone else as a dork with a straight face is beyond me

-my face aint straight

&

Well as Robby is well aware but refuses to acknowledge, I love everyone because that's what a Christian is supposed to do. And besides the expectations of me loving everyone, even say murderers, I find you really likeable.

-well, according to my company chaplain and priest
my killing for my country was not murder

& that is why i am no longer Catholic

 

[Kuiper]

-my face aint straight

&


-well, according to my company chaplain and priest
my killing for my country was not murder

& that is why i am no longer Catholic

For the record, there is a difference between being no longer Catholic and no longer Christian. Catholics are by and large Christians, but the Vatican is a decidely un-Christian institution. I know quite a few people who are no longer Catholics, they are Christians who no longer listening to an entity which has killed tens of millions of Christians for "crimes" such as reading the Bible or believing a cracker is not the body of Jesus. The Church is the community of all believers, the Roman Catholic "Church" has been an obstacle to the religion since its founding.

War is not automatically murder. If you shoot a civilian on purpose for no reason, that is murder. If you shoot an enemy soldier who has a gun pointed in your face, that is not murder, it is self-defense on a personal level and if it is a justified war it is a larger self-defense for yourself, your country, and others. Christians are commanded to protect their families and God has sanctioned war in the past, so, therefore, war is not an automatically un-Christian thing, it is just not the best choice in a lot of cases and is a blank check for a lot of bad things unfortunately.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

and is a blank check for a lot of bad things unfortunately.

& that is why now profess

so much

though
sometimes i am seized by the old lust for

 

[Worm]

"God has sanctioned war in the past"

*rubbing eyes*

Did I read that correctly?

 

[Kuiper]

"God has sanctioned war in the past"

*rubbing eyes*

Did I read that correctly?

Have you read the Old Testament? The relation of that book to the New Testament can be a bit difficult for people (mostly non-Christians though, since I really don't think a non-Christian can ever truly understand the Bible) to figure out but the point remains that God has approved of war.

 

[chica]

But how do you know he doesn't still approve of it? And, back then, did he approve of aggressive war, or only defensive?

 

[Kuiper]

But how do you know he doesn't still approve of it? And, back then, did he approve of aggressive war, or only defensive?

I said that God still does approve of it. God does not change, He has made that abundantly clear. The difference between aggressive and defensive war is not so simple as which one is charging at the other. I would say that every justified war is by default defensive, because if you attacked some one for no reason how could that possibly be justified. But if you have a country way on the other side of the world (I'm not referring to any real life situation here, so don't try to find any illusion to any actual events) that is a threat to you and others, the regime is oppressing its people, makes all the token efforts to harm you they can (I guess that mostly be terrorist activities and guerillas), but just doesn't quite have the military power to send an invasion force across the ocean to your continent, and you attacked them at long last, that would still be defensive. If they were an innocent little government that did no one any harm and was no threat at all, and you invaded them based on nothing at all, that would be aggressive.

 

[chica]

So, basically, it is important that the war is justified, God doesn't make difference between defensive and aggressive war? I was wondering if it was clearly stated somewhere in the Bible?

 

[Kuiper]

So, basically, it is important that the war is justified, God doesn't make difference between defensive and aggressive war? I was wondering if it was clearly stated somewhere in the Bible?

You could say that, but it is my amateur military science theory that a justified war is automatically defensive in some way for it to be justified. It is stated throughout the Bible, all the times God has approved of war but the reasons behind the wars are not in any specific verse like "Thou shalt only go to war when the enemy is an oppressive dictator, a threat to your nation or others around you, and has made aggressive overtures towards you even if they do not have a bluewater navy capable of transporting their military to your shores". Sorry if that sounds too sarcastic or flippant, but that's the shortest way to explain it.

 

[Kuiper]

Religion can't be good if it promotes warfare.

There is a difference between open without condition promotion and occassional conditional approval.

 

[Kuiper]

Yeah, if it makes you sleep better at night.

Yes, I sleep very comfortably at night knowing my God loves everyone, we are all supposed to show kindness to one another, but if someone starts harming people they won't get away with it sometimes hopefully in this world but definitely in the next world.

 

[Kuiper]

Is that a threat?

Are you harming someone right now? If yes, then it is. If not, then no.

 

[Kuiper]

You're not nice, just because I don't like US FOREIGN POLICY.

Umm, I said I'm not threatening you because I can naturally assume you haven't kidnapped anyone and they're sitting right next your computer in a burlap sack starving and beaten. If you did do that, well, I would have to indirectly threaten you, but you're not hurting anyone so I'm not threatening you. Pretty obvious if you ask me. And anyway, I am being very nice to you. If I wasn't I'd be insulting you personally, but like I said, I don't take cheap shots at people and countries.

And also like I said, either stop pretending like you "only dislike our foreign policy" or act you actually don't hate Americans. Stop saying we're unwelcome in your country and you don't care what anyone one of us has to say. If you want to keep saying you aren't an anti-American bigot, THEN YOU DON'T BE ONE! It's up to you to decide who you like and dislike, so either hate Americans and admit it or live up to your supposed claims of not being prejudiced against us.

 

[Worm]

Do you know what the religious maniacs responsible for so much bloodshed for the last few millennia had in common? They all thought they knew what God "sanctioned" or "approved of". I don't know you and I have no reason not to respect your religious convictions, but just FYI, for secular people-- as well as a lot of religious types, I hear tell-- reading the phrase "God has sanctioned war in the past" is about as frightening as it gets, not to mention that it sounds like a declaration right out of the fourteenth century. I'd be the last to knock anyone for loving God and living by his beliefs, but I get a little leery when said beliefs start taking on an air of infallible certainty. People claim to know the mind of God? Or claim His book is all we need-- a book written by men? Seems like maybe God should be a mystery, maybe to His own followers most of all. But, hey, skepticism should never spoil a party.

"Hello, I'm God, and I approved this carpet bombing."​

 

[Uncleskinny]

Do you know what the religious maniacs responsible for so much bloodshed for the last few millennia had in common? They all thought they knew what God "sanctioned" or "approved of". I don't know you and I have no reason not to respect your religious convictions, but just FYI, for secular people-- as well as a lot of religious types, I hear tell-- reading the phrase "God has sanctioned war in the past" is about as frightening as it gets, not to mention that it sounds like a declaration right out of the fourteenth century. I'd be the last to knock anyone for loving God and living by his beliefs, but I get a little leery when said beliefs start taking on an air of infallible certainty. People claim to know the mind of God? Or claim His book is all we need-- a book written by men? Seems like maybe God should be a mystery, maybe to His own followers most of all. But, hey, skepticism should never spoil a party.

"Hello, I'm God, and I approved this carpet bombing."​

Great post. When are people going to take responsibility for their actions and stop claiming that they are guided by, as Dawkins puts it, the giant spaghetti monster? You can put it anyway you like - there was once a great punk band name Doom, and they had a song named No Religion - "Religion is a brain-wash con, secularity must become..." - it looks simplistic but it embodies everything. And Richard Dawkins is the proselytizer for the new reality.

Peter

P.S

I'm not knocking people for believing what they believe, or having a code that guides their life, but we're not in the medieval ages now, we know more now than we did then, we can explain our world better. If you want to believe in a 'God', then that's fantastic. Live your life, but don't make decisions that affect my life based on your beliefs. I believe that people should be free to believe whatever they choose, so long as it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

[Grim O'Grady]

Have you read the Old Testament? The relation of that book to the New Testament can be a bit difficult for people (mostly non-Christians though, since I really don't think a non-Christian can ever truly understand the Bible) to figure out but the point remains that God has approved of war.

Patronising Onan-ist

love

Grim (done with errors but not biblical ones)

 

[Dave]

Do you think people naturally know the right way to behave or do they have to be taught? the question is for anyone, I'm just curious.

 

[Kuiper]

Do you know what the religious maniacs responsible for so much bloodshed for the last few millennia had in common? They all thought they knew what God "sanctioned" or "approved of". I don't know you and I have no reason not to respect your religious convictions, but just FYI, for secular people-- as well as a lot of religious types, I hear tell-- reading the phrase "God has sanctioned war in the past" is about as frightening as it gets, not to mention that it sounds like a declaration right out of the fourteenth century. I'd be the last to knock anyone for loving God and living by his beliefs, but I get a little leery when said beliefs start taking on an air of infallible certainty. People claim to know the mind of God? Or claim His book is all we need-- a book written by men? Seems like maybe God should be a mystery, maybe to His own followers most of all. But, hey, skepticism should never spoil a party.

"Hello, I'm God, and I approved this carpet bombing."​

I find more frightening a denial of God and a rejection of all moral codes. If someone says, like that in some circumstances some amount of warfare is acceptable, always under the watchful eyes of God and with love and kindness considered honorable virtues, it is frankly not at all frightening. What is very unnerving is when people believe something along the lines of: "“There is no God. When communists deny God, they simultaneously deny every virtue and every value which originates with God. There are no moral absolutes, no right and wrong. The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount are invalid!” - Karl Marx

To reiterate: believers in God - secularists
Sometimes war is acceptable - no guidlines, either for good or bad, on the subject
God watches everything and will judge everyone - no higher authority, no judgment for bad deeds
An expectation of morality and a code of conduct - doubts the existence of predefined "morality" and no automatic code of conduct

So which seems more threatening, when someone who believes in a higher authority and judgment and ultimate punishment for bad deeds and has a code of morality says that in some situations and circumstances war can be acceptable, or when someone completely denies any higher authority, judgment, or mandatory expectations of love, mercy, etc.

And the Bible was not written by men. It was written by God therefore whatever it says is correct and acceptable. Many secularists such as yourself freely say it's written by men even to Christians and expect them to agree with them, but no, I don't. I trust the Bible, which is not afraid to demand certain characteristics of people and will not excuse evil than men.

EDIT: Hey, my 1000th posts. Hurray!

 

[Dave]

Here's the problem. You make these statements, more or less...

Only Christians can understand the Bible
The Bible is the word of God
which, those two statements alone can lead to a lot of trouble, but then specifically you say that God approves of just war, and that no just act of war is an act of offense, but is always an act of defense.

I think all of these beliefs together would allow a delusional person to rule over gullible subjects as long as they believed he was interpreting the bible correctly. I also think it would allow an otherwise good person to do very bad things and rationalize that it was God's will. That's why there is a continual need for a separation of Church and State.

 

[Kuiper]

Here's the problem. You make these statements, more or less...

Only Christians can understand the Bible
The Bible is the word of God
which, those two statements alone can lead to a lot of trouble, but then specifically you say that God approves of just war, and that no just act of war is an act of offense, but is always an act of defense.

I think all of these beliefs together would allow a delusional person to rule over gullible subjects as long as they believed he was interpreting the bible correctly. I also think it would allow an otherwise good person to do very bad things and rationalize that it was God's will. That's why there is a continual need for a separation of Church and State.

First off I think you, and most people, misinterpret what seperation of Church and State means. Jefferson, the noted deist he was, wanted the State not to meddle in the affairs of religion, and not to keep religion out of politics. He wanted the new president to not be able to tell the Anabaptists to change their views, but seperation of Church and State sees nothing wrong with a Calvinist preacher running for office and students praying in school.

When a population is reading the Bible freely, there is no gullible masses following the interpretations of a delusional person in charge. They can look up the verses the person is citing, reading them in context, look up different versions and translations, research root words, and that is of course counting the fact that Christians are generally tolerant and kind towards one another (no, the Vatican murdering millions of Christians for daring to read the Bible does not count considering the fact that this was not a Christian-Christian act, but an attack by power-hungry non-Christians upon actual Christians). On that subject, the Vatican banning reading the Bible without their approval is an example of delusional people making the masses gullible. They thought reading verses about calling forbidding anyone to marry a devilish thing would cause people to question their doctrines. And they were right about that, with my freedom to read the Bible I reject their theological hegemony. But the difference there is that they weren't even trying to reinterpret the Bible, they were pretty much just ignoring it, and me and people like me encourage people to read the Bible and share what they think it means. Saying that only Christians can fully comprehend the Bible and encouraging them to read it is hardly the same as the Catholic Church (I know you didn't even mention them, but they are perfect example of what you are referring to) ignoring the Bible and banning people from reading it.

And if someone is humbly submitted to God's will, praying to correctly understand His Word, and striving to interpret it correctly and do according to will not lead to delusion and thinking everything is God's will. With what I've said, there really is no problem. I can understand how because of various examples of delusion people claiming various things as the will of God(s) how you would be cautious of anything in this vein, but there really is no opening for someone abiding by the guidelines of being an actual Christian and actually valuing the Bible ending up being a mass-murdering dictator.