Question Moz & God

[Raphael Lambach]

I always thought Moz was agnostic or something like that. But since some years ago, he's wearing crosses and, I guess, never spoke against religion even in a satiric way as "Satan rejected my soul"...

What do you think about it, guys?

 

[Lucifer Sam]

I think I probably live in a country as catholic as you can find nowadays (when the grasp of Catholicism has sharply declined everywhere).

Wearing a crucifix seems very different from bling (new word for me). It doesn't belong to any macho or criminal subculture.

Maybe that's why it's different. I live in a traditionally Protestant country that experienced a lot of Catholic immigration in the twentieth century. For immigrant groups like Irish, Italians, and Mexicans, Catholicism was an important part of the mother culture, the source of ancestral pride. The outward signs of the religion remained even when personal belief wavered. Particularly in gang culture. Did you ever see The Godfather, with the scene where Michael takes his place at the baptism of his sister's child whose father he's ordered murdered? Granted, that's the Hollywood version, but there's always been a perverse connection here between a show of Catholicism and immigrant criminal subcultures, like the cholo gang members who wear Rosaries as necklaces. That's the kind of stuff I was thinking of. Since Morrissey has lived here himself, I don't think this has escaped his notice.

Still, it could be the case, but his post asking for prayers for his mother very strongly indicate otherwise. It seemed very religious in nature. Didn't he even ask for two different kind of prayers? My knowledge about this is almost nonexistent, but are the kind of prayers he mentioned an actual thing?

I think he just asked for all his friends and fans in various nations to pray for intercession and healing. That's definitely religious in nature, but like I said earlier, it was an extremely emotional and desperate situation for him. I wouldn't use it to peg him as a believer.

I think a spiritual person might write that sort of lyrics if said person does not hold himself orthodox religious beliefs. I do not think however that what he's doing in those songs can be accurately described as "mocking".

Asking God if he's ever felt sexually tempted by a man putting his hand on his knee isn't mocking? Inverting Jesus' role of forgiver isn't blasphemous? We may be at an impasse. I've been a believing Catholic and those things did not sit well with me, nor do I think they would for most of the Catholics I know.

 

[Crisstti]

Maybe that's why it's different. I live in a traditionally Protestant country that experienced a lot of Catholic immigration in the twentieth century. For immigrant groups like Irish, Italians, and Mexicans, Catholicism was an important part of the mother culture, the source of ancestral pride. The outward signs of the religion remained even when personal belief wavered. Particularly in gang culture. Did you ever see The Godfather, with the scene where Michael takes his place at the baptism of his sister's child whose father he's ordered murdered? Granted, that's the Hollywood version, but there's always been a perverse connection here between a show of Catholicism and immigrant criminal subcultures, like the cholo gang members who wear Rosaries as necklaces. That's the kind of stuff I was thinking of. Since Morrissey has lived here himself, I don't think this has escaped his notice.

That is a very interesting point, you may well be right there.

I think he just asked for all his friends and fans in various nations to pray for intercession and healing. That's definitely religious in nature, but like I said earlier, it was an extremely emotional and desperate situation for him. I wouldn't use it to peg him as a believer.

Seems like if anything, something like that is a moment that shows what you truly believe about this kind of thing. He also in that interview with Sam after his mom's passing, outright said he hadn't lost his faith (or something along those lines). That it's impossible cause it's too deeply ingrained, it's not like stamp collecting.

Asking God if he's ever felt sexually tempted by a man putting his hand on his knee isn't mocking? Inverting Jesus' role of forgiver isn't blasphemous? We may be at an impasse. I've been a believing Catholic and those things did not sit well with me, nor do I think they would for most of the Catholics I know.

I'm not at all offended by the lyrics. They seem subversive, but not offensive to me. Mind you, I've never been a Catholic per se, but was raised a non-denominational Christian, one could say. Still, my beliefs would be essentially Catholic in nature, since it's what I know.

I find the songs lyrically very powerful (especially I Have Forgiven Jesus) precisely because what I get from them, is someone having a conversation with God/Jesus, reproaching him in the case of I Have Forgiven Jesus (anger towards God is surely not an unusual feeling), expressing a conflict in the case of Dear God, asking for help, asking if he can even understand ("have you ever felt this way"), but they're conversations he wouldn't be having if he wasn't a believer in the first place.
If the songs are merely meant to mock and there's no real feeling to them, they would lose a lot lyrically imo.

PS: I'm pleased I've found a way to multiquote a post.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Seems like if anything, something like that is a moment that shows what you truly believe about this kind of thing. He also in that interview with Sam after his mom's passing, outright said he hadn't lost his faith (or something along those lines). That it's impossible cause it's too deeply ingrained, it's not like stamp collecting.

Yes, it's in the interview with Rayner that he says it. But what he says is that once the faith has taken root, it's impossible to get rid of, even if you become an atheist. I can relate to that on a personal level. I am a committed agnostic, and an atheist as regards the Christian God, but on very rare occasions I sometimes still reflexively cross myself or begin a prayer before I remember I don't believe anymore. It's just an instinctual vestige. And I am almost certain that if my own mother was in the hospital near death, that I would probably pray. But that wouldn't be an indicator of what I believe. It would be an indicator of how emotional and desperate I've become.

I find the songs lyrically very powerful (especially I Have Forgiven Jesus) precisely because what I get from them, is someone having a conversation with God/Jesus, reproaching him in the case of I Have Forgiven Jesus (anger towards God is surely not an unusual feeling), expressing a conflict in the case of Dear God, asking for help, asking if he can even understand ("have you ever felt this way"), but they're conversations he wouldn't be having if he wasn't a believer in the first place.
If the songs are merely meant to mock and there's no real feeling to them, they would lose a lot lyrically imo.

You can definitely question God without believing. It's an effective poetic device. Dear God by XTC is a popular atheist anthem, written in the form of addressing God personally. Neither of us thinks Morrissey's an atheist, but our intuitions on Dear God Please Help Me and I Have Forgiven Jesus don't match: I feel like they have much more of a sly and doubting tenor than a believing one. I think Morrissey aims for caustic irreverent humor more often than he's given credit for.

 

[Pav1ova]

Aubrey, Crisstti, I've enjoyed reading your conversation as I don't know much about Catholicism behind, uh, pop culture stuff I guess?

I can definitely see how someone who is not particularly devout may (temporarily or not so) change their ways in stressful situations. I've been stuck somewhere between atheist and agnostic and yet when my grandmother died, I desperately wanted to believe in some heavenly afterlife that would make her suffering of later years fair and justified. So whether or not he's a practicing Catholic it's all very understandable!

As for "gods" thing — maybe he was just being respectful of the fact that some of his fans may be polytheist? Sorry, I have no idea... Is even an Abrahamic god one and the same? Do Christians and Muslims actually worship the same god?

I wonder if he still would have written something like DGPHM had he been in Manchester or LA at the time? The aesthetic and spiritual inspiration of Rome and all.

And boy do I love the blasphemy and angst of of the title statement of IHFJ. It's both "arrogant" to say that (suggesting that Jesus can earn forgiveness) and at the same time it's an act of humility. That's how I see it anyway.

Sorry, no interesting takes there, I'm too much of a "we'll never know what's actually going on" person.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

I wonder if he still would have written something like DGPHM had he been in Manchester or LA at the time? The aesthetic and spiritual inspiration of Rome and all.

That's an interesting take. It's notable that even when he was living in the heart of Roman Catholicism, his aesthetic didn't reflect much (if any) of it. His magnificent descriptive passages in Autobiography evoke beautiful bronzed youths in football shirts on Vespas and their fashionable heavy-lidded girlfriends smoking cigarettes without a care in the world. I get the impression from You Have Killed Me that he was more enthralled by the thought of walking the same streets as Pasolini and Visconti once did, not Ss. Pius V or Philip Neri. Morrissey seems captivated by the romance of the place; the religion doesn't appear to compel. I agree with you, Dear God Please Help Me might've been written because the notion of God is perhaps "in the air" in Rome, and it's hard not to breathe it in as you walk along. But that's probably the extent of it.