Morrissey's message of (non)violence

[Anaesthesine]

Here's a letter published in yesterday's Salon:

http://letters.salon.com/food/feature/2010/11/23/thanksgiving_turkey_vegetarian_gravy_open2010/view/

Excerpt:

A Non-Violent Philosophy Begins at Breakfast

"During the '80s, I was a huge Smiths fan. I've got nearly all their cassettes, but missed the opportunity to see them in concert in 1986. Their 1985 album, Meat is Murder, was on college radio stations everywhere. In an era when rock and pop seemed swamped in causes, the Smiths added their weight to (lead singer) Morrissey's support for animal rights.

'I think as long as human beings are so violent towards animals, there will be war,' he argued. 'It might sound absurd, but if you really think about the situation it all makes sense. When there's this absolute lack of sensitivity where life is concerned, there will always be war.'

In 1985, Morrissey struggled to articulate a dualistic persona with a classic example of verbal doublethink: 'Personally, I'm an incurably peaceable character. But where does that get you? Nowhere. You have to be violent...It seems to me now that when you try to change things in a peaceable manner, you're actually wasting your time and you're laughed out of court,' he argued. '...the only way we can get rid of such things as the meat industry, and other things like nuclear weapons, is by giving people a taste of their own medicine.'

Ask Morrissey about the terrorist bombing of butcher shops in England, and he still coldly replies: 'One dead butcher isn't such a great loss.'

Peter Singer warned about this kind of thinking in Animal Liberation: 'We may be convinced that a person who is abusing animals is entirely callous and insensitive; but we lower ourselves to that level if we physically harm or threaten physical harm to that person. Violence can only breed more violence...The strength of the case for Animal Liberation is its ethical commitment. We occupy the high moral ground and to abandon it is to play into the hands of those who would oppose us.'"

This letter appeared in a section on vegan Thanksgiving alternatives; food for thought.

Happy morally/ethically/politically-charged harvest festival, everyone.

 

[joe frady]

Here's a letter published in yesterday's Salon:

http://letters.salon.com/food/feature/2010/11/23/thanksgiving_turkey_vegetarian_gravy_open2010/view/

Excerpt:

A Non-Violent Philosophy Begins at Breakfast

"During the '80s, I was a huge Smiths fan. I've got nearly all their cassettes, but missed the opportunity to see them in concert in 1986. Their 1985 album, Meat is Murder, was on college radio stations everywhere. In an era when rock and pop seemed swamped in causes, the Smiths added their weight to (lead singer) Morrissey's support for animal rights.

'I think as long as human beings are so violent towards animals, there will be war,' he argued. 'It might sound absurd, but if you really think about the situation it all makes sense. When there's this absolute lack of sensitivity where life is concerned, there will always be war.'

In 1985, Morrissey struggled to articulate a dualistic persona with a classic example of verbal doublethink: 'Personally, I'm an incurably peaceable character. But where does that get you? Nowhere. You have to be violent...It seems to me now that when you try to change things in a peaceable manner, you're actually wasting your time and you're laughed out of court,' he argued. '...the only way we can get rid of such things as the meat industry, and other things like nuclear weapons, is by giving people a taste of their own medicine.'

Ask Morrissey about the terrorist bombing of butcher shops in England, and he still coldly replies: 'One dead butcher isn't such a great loss.'

Peter Singer warned about this kind of thinking in Animal Liberation: 'We may be convinced that a person who is abusing animals is entirely callous and insensitive; but we lower ourselves to that level if we physically harm or threaten physical harm to that person. Violence can only breed more violence...The strength of the case for Animal Liberation is its ethical commitment. We occupy the high moral ground and to abandon it is to play into the hands of those who would oppose us.'"

This letter appeared in a section on vegan Thanksgiving alternatives; food for thought.

Happy morally/ethically/politically-charged harvest festival, everyone.

God, I feel old

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I for one understand and feel for Morrissey on this subject. Yet, Singer has a point saying that we lower ourselves when we're acting out violence.
But ultimately Morrissey is right, I feel. Violence won't be defeated by kind words, sadly.

 

[[email protected]]

...Nothing really to add here, but , it is known( in the UK, anyway) that the British army has Bayonet practice/training on Live pigs, as their skin is so similar to human skin.....War + Violence....hmmm....

 

[Gregor Samsa]

...Nothing really to add here, but , it is known( in the UK, anyway) that the British army has Bayonet practice/training on Live pigs, as their skin is so similar to human skin.....War + Violence....hmmm....

That's the most vile thing I've heard in a good while. Dear God...

 

[[email protected]]

That's the most vile thing I've heard in a good while. Dear God...

OOPS!! Sorry, Gregor.....But I missed the word "Used" out above ( In the past... They used to use pigs, it should have read....sorry, but, the "Meanings" still the same....this was back in the 1980's....). not sure if they still do nowadays, but I worked with an Ex-soldier, who told me it was pretty commonplace.
Apologies to any UK armed Forces readers if this treatment has been dis-continued.
( my Ex-soldier Mate also said they tested Hand -grenades on Live Pigs, to train Future Army surgeons in their "Casualty" Stitching of wounds/Bleeding stoppage ....for much the same "Skin/Wound "reaction....).

 

[Anaesthesine]

Morrissey is right and wrong; can compassion ever triumph over violence using peaceful means? Unless your name is Mohandas K. Gandhi, I think the answer is either no, or it will take so long that the victory may be moot.

It is a powerful bit of cognitive dissonance, and one that plagues every peaceful movement. Morrissey's sense of frustration when the subject comes up is warranted. He's one of the few who actually Made a Difference, and it didn't really make a difference. Or did it?

Ahimsa.

God, I feel old

Yep, good ol' analog technology: the solid "kerchunk!" of the tape mechanism, the delicate crackle as the needle dropped onto the vinyl - jeez, that was a lifetime ago.

 

[MILVA]

Morrissey is right and wrong; can compassion ever triumph over violence using peaceful means? Unless your name is Mohandas K. Gandhi, I think the answer is either no, or it will take so long that the victory may be moot.

It is a powerful bit of cognitive dissonance, and one that plagues every peaceful movement. Morrissey's sense of frustration when the subject comes up is warranted. He's one of the few who actually Made a Difference, and it didn't really make a difference. Or did it?

Ahimsa.



Yep, good ol' analog technology: the solid "kerchunk!" of the tape mechanism, the delicate crackle as the needle dropped onto the vinyl - jeez, that was a lifetime ago.

Does compassion have to triumph over violence? Compassion is simply compassion - it can go hand in hand with violence. And it probably should.

 

[Anaesthesine]

Does compassion have to triumph over violence? Compassion is simply compassion - it can go hand in hand with violence. And it probably should.

You're a dangerous radical, MILVA.

OK, let's keep compassion and violence, but switch things out a little: let's say that there's a massive outbreak of kindness brewing on the Korean Peninsula, and North and South Korea are heading towards a crisis of compassion, with each country determined to engage in a massive, defiant, mutual show of support for their neighbor. American warships are on their way, and Russia, China and Japan are all determined to join in a multi-national outbreak of mutually assured respect that threatens to pull in other nations and stabilize governments everywhere. Oh, the humanity.

Meanwhile, people around the globe are stunned at a thousand random acts of cruelty, as little old ladies are pushed in front of busses, neighbors are breaking and entering each other's homes, and dogs and cats everywhere are tortured by their owners in an orgy of misplaced rage.

Yeah, there's a place and a time for everything, but I think compassion manages to trump violence every single time.

 

[DAVIE]

Well, Morrissey could say back to Peter Singer...."You my friend, are a pussy"

 

[Happy Maudlin]

This letter appeared in a section on vegan Thanksgiving alternatives; food for thought.

Happy morally/ethically/politically-charged harvest festival, everyone.

Thanks for this, but I have to say I enjoyed my Thanksgiving dinner. I tried to be vegetarian/ vegan specifically, and I was quite passionate about too. But I can't be a vegetarian in my mother's house. It can't work unfortunately.

 

[murder and desire]

Well, Morrissey could say back to Peter Singer...."You my friend, are a pussy"

How has Philosophy coped with out you?

 

[murder and desire]

Thanks for this, but I have to say I enjoyed my Thanksgiving dinner. I tried to be vegetarian/ vegan specifically, and I was quite passionate about too. But I can't be a vegetarian in my mother's house. It can't work unfortunately.

Oh dear

 

[MILVA]

You're a dangerous radical, MILVA.

OK, let's keep compassion and violence, but switch things out a little: let's say that there's a massive outbreak of kindness brewing on the Korean Peninsula, and North and South Korea are heading towards a crisis of compassion, with each country determined to engage in a massive, defiant, mutual show of support for their neighbor. American warships are on their way, and Russia, China and Japan are all determined to join in a multi-national outbreak of mutually assured respect that threatens to pull in other nations and stabilize governments everywhere. Oh, the humanity.

Meanwhile, people around the globe are stunned at a thousand random acts of cruelty, as little old ladies are pushed in front of busses, neighbors are breaking and entering each other's homes, and dogs and cats everywhere are tortured by their owners in an orgy of misplaced rage.

Yeah, there's a place and a time for everything, but I think compassion manages to trump violence every single time.

Well, I'm a little old lady who narrowly escaped a bus attack, but I guess the driver thought something must have gone wrong...

I find there's a whole lot of violence in "one dead butcher isn't such a great loss" (or the cheers about the death of this turkey tycoon who shan't be named), and truth as well, and it's not compassionate towards the family of the deceased, but then it's compassionate for the potential "victims".

I think it's good to be compassionate and violent at the same time, if this violence means protection of the innocent victim, which, in the end, is what compassion means: trying to walk in the shoes of the one who suffers.

And I agree that identifying who is suffering (and why) may not always be easy, but when it is - I won't hesitate. And it doesn't have to be through criminal violence - although the court system is, for me, an absolutely violent environment. And in some cases indeed, probably even plain physical violence is needed. Out of compassion.

 

[Branwell]

Violence is not a good argument, it surely is not. It is based upon suppression (which probably is the thing that works best for power-obsessed suppressors) while the transformation should come about through empathy and a general love for life - which is a cure. Ideally.
It is possible to raise consciousness and feeling for matters of cruelty and mistake by understanding and approaching words and relevance of form. Unfortunately human nature has its destructive excrescences, hardened and amenable for nothing and no one.

I think it's good to be compassionate and violent at the same time, if this violence means protection of the innocent victim, which, in the end, is what compassion means: trying to walk in the shoes of the one who suffers.

Well, there's got to be a differentiation between defence-violence and prototype-violence.

Here's the violence of overwhelming someone with the relentless veracity of love which is what Morrissey does in "America Is Not The World" when he repeats the words "And I love you" over and over.

 

[Barking]

...Nothing really to add here, but , it is known( in the UK, anyway) that the British army has Bayonet practice/training on Live pigs

But aren't "the pigs" the police?

Here's the violence of overwhelming someone with the relentless veracity of love which is what Morrissey does in "America Is Not The World" when he repeats the words "And I love you" over and over.

Hammering it in doesn't make it true though.

 

[Anaesthesine]

I find there's a whole lot of violence in "one dead butcher isn't such a great loss" (or the cheers about the death of this turkey tycoon who shan't be named), and truth as well, and it's not compassionate towards the family of the deceased, but then it's compassionate for the potential "victims".

I suppose Morrissey saves his compassion for the animal victims in these cases - those who cannot defend themselves. He seldom sheds any tears (at least publicly) for the humans who profit off the pain/death of the animals. I can understand his feelings (or lack of) on the subject, I often feel the same way myself.

I think it's good to be compassionate and violent at the same time, if this violence means protection of the innocent victim, which, in the end, is what compassion means: trying to walk in the shoes of the one who suffers.

That's where it gets very, very problematic.

And I agree that identifying who is suffering (and why) may not always be easy, but when it is - I won't hesitate. And it doesn't have to be through criminal violence - although the court system is, for me, an absolutely violent environment. And in some cases indeed, probably even plain physical violence is needed. Out of compassion.

I used to feel that way. I have quite a few friends who, in their hot-headed youth, were members of organizations that often found themselves on the wrong side of the law. They've all mellowed (as does happen) to the point of rejecting violence altogether.

There are things worth fighting and dying for, it's true.

Well, there's got to be a differentiation between defence-violence and prototype-violence.

Yes, there's self-defense, defense of others, and initiating the violence which is never, ever justified.

 

[Branwell]

Hammering it in doesn't make it true though.

Being true makes it hammering.

 

[Barking]

Being true makes it hammering.

Hmmm. HAMMER FAIL​

 

[goinghome]

Here's the violence of overwhelming someone with the relentless veracity of love which is what Morrissey does in "America Is Not The World" when he repeats the words "And I love you" over and over.

This is a very wonderful observation.