'Meat is Murder' PETA computer game + Morrissey comment

Authorised (I guess, by Moz at least), Smiths computer game, complete with 8-bit style soundtrack, from PETA. Their blurb, from Twitter/Facebook:

"This game is the biggest social crusade of all as we safeguard the weak & helpless from violent human aggression. You don't get that from Pokémon GO," #Morrissey
Save animals from slaughter in ‎PETA's new game featuring #TheSmith's "Meat is Murder."

http://features.peta.org/meat-is-murder-game/


38927_peta_mim_game.jpg




Play the Smiths and PETA’s “Meat Is Murder” Video Game - Pitchfork
Morrissey: “This game is the biggest social crusade of all, as we safeguard the weak and helpless from violent human aggression. You don’t get that from ‘Pokémon Go.’”


Link posted by Roberto Ferdenzi / Facebook:

This Beautiful Creature Must Die: what is Morrissey's animal rights game like? - The Guardian
By Tim Jonze
Peta has launched a game approved by the Smiths frontman, complete with a bleepy rendition of Meat Is Murder – but is it any good?
 
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evennow

Writers on the storm
I'm not sure if this game will stop people from eating meat, but Atari's Tarzan game made me want to save the rain forests :deciduous: and their Superman game made me want to fight crime. :hammer: :thumb:
 

MIDNITE

Active Member
I'm not sure if this game will stop people from eating meat, but Atari's Tarzan game made me want to save the rain forests :deciduous: and their Superman game made me want to fight crime. :hammer: :thumb:

You have just answered your own query! :)
 

rifke

bodhisattva
all i can say is i find myself feeling all confusedly dolorous every time the message "death without reason" comes up on the screen.

but what im really interested in knowing is why do people always say steven patrick morrissey? is patrick his middle name or does he have two first names? since he doesnt go by either in the first place, why dont people just say steven morrissey? patricks such a great name though and it does sound good after steven.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
all i can say is i find myself feeling all confusedly dolorous every time the message "death without reason" comes up on the screen.

but what im really interested in knowing is why do people always say steven patrick morrissey? is patrick his middle name or does he have two first names? since he doesnt go by either in the first place, why dont people just say steven morrissey? patricks such a great name though and it does sound good after steven.

That is his Christian name. Patrick = Irish and Morrissey = English. Hence the song. And Steven I have in common with him so I always felt he was a bit of a kindred spirit. Coming from a Catholic background I can understand why he shies away from it. Because whenever I heard my full name called out "STEVEN" I knew I was in trouble for something. :paranoid:
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
Incorrect. There was no admission by the NME merely an acknowledgement that Morrissey had chosen to take offence at being called out over his trolling of the immigration issue. It would be helpful if you actually read articles you quote to bolster your erroneous claim that 'Morrissey successfully sued':

"the matter of the libel case was now closed and that the settlement did not involve payment of any damages or legal costs."


Unlike with the disasterous case of Mike Joyce, it appears Morrissey listened to legal counsel and accepted their advice not to pursue the matter to The High Court of London.

Morrissey is not a racist but he has egregiously bad form in using the issue of immigration to troll and inflame the debate around immigration. His comment on Chinese people being a 'sub-species' was regarded by some as conclusive evidence of racist views, I chose to see it as conclusive evidence that Morrissey was/is and probably always will be an incorrigible troll and a hugely inept one at that.

The NME had to apologize to Morrissey, though. I think that to collect monetary damages you have to prove them, and Morrissey was doing very well at the time, which was his reason/excuse for not further pursuing the charges. I stand by my statement that "Morrissey successfully sued the NME."
The whole thing was about public perception. The NME first put out the message that Morrissey was being reckless and xenophobic. It isn't hard to read his own words and perceive them as racist, especially when he used the term "subspecies" which is too close to "subhuman." "The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away," is followed by the NME saying OH DEAR NOT AGAIN.
He did everything he could to invoke racism without actually making a deliberately racist statement. "If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent."
He was being xenophobic, not racist, but the language about the Chinese really stepped over the line.
But then they had to apologize and say "We don't believe Morrissey is racist."
He won because he made comments that would fit perfectly in the category "Things a racist would say" and then he managed to get them to apologize for, in effect, publishing the things he said into their tape recorder. He tried to say his words were edited, but he never said how and he never specifically tried to deny saying any of that, and every bit of it sounds like something he would say.
I think he stopped pursuing the trial further because all they did was print what he said. It goes right along with his lyrics in "Bengali In Platforms." I don't think Morrissey is actually racist in a sense. I doubt he would use slurs, but at the same time I think he believes England is a white country, and I think he believes "England for the English," and that that is not some ironic joke.
I don't know if you're aware but I've written several times that Morrissey is a troll and has been his whole career. National Front Disco works on different levels, but it's an example of his habit of inciting controversy in order to get attention.
In the lyrics of that song he's talking to different people.
There's a country
You don't live there
But one day you would like to
And if you show us what you're made of
Well, you might do

Okay, this applies to the immigrants who would like to live in England, on one level.
But the other reading is that this country he's talking about is an ideal England, one that David and his pals from the National Front could live in if they show what they're made of. White England for the English.
Then he says
"David, we wonder if the thunder is ever really gonna begin" which is sort of mocking and meaning that they aren't really going to do anything. But he says
'Begin, oh begin" like he's goading them.
Again, he's trolling. Trolls know you don't have to believe what you say. Once you get past that, the real fun begins.

My point is that Morrissey is a troll. Morrissey is xenophobic. Morrissey makes statements that could quite easily be seen as racist. And yet he took them to court. They tried to block the suit. He managed to be heard. He got an apology out of it and then he dropped it, because the chances are, if a jury heard the things he said, and failing to find anywhere that the NME actually said he was a racist, but only implied, the way he implied, it's very possible he would not have received satisfaction. But to sum up, it was all about public perception from the start. NME had very limited circulation, but did manage to maximize it with their pretend shock at Morrissey being Morrissey. The fact that they apologized was much bigger news, and that means he won. Usually the headline grabbing charge is on the cover and the retraction is on page 96, but he managed to keep the story going for three whole years.

n the statement published on its website and in the magazine, the NME said: "We wish to make clear that we do not believe that he is a racist.
"We didn't think we were saying he was and we apologise to Morrissey if he or anyone else misunderstood our piece in that way.
"We never set out to upset Morrissey and we hope we can both get back to doing what we do best."

A statement released by the singer's lawyer said: "My client is obviously pleased that the NME have finally and publicly apologised to him.
"This claim was never about financial damages, and no money was sought as part of a settlement.
"The NME apology in itself is settlement enough and it closes the case".
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy - "Facebook Non-Entity"
The NME had to apologize to Morrissey, though. I think that to collect monetary damages you have to prove them, and Morrissey was doing very well at the time, which was his reason/excuse for not further pursuing the charges. I stand by my statement that "Morrissey successfully sued the NME."
The whole thing was about public perception. The NME first put out the message that Morrissey was being reckless and xenophobic. It isn't hard to read his own words and perceive them as racist, especially when he used the term "subspecies" which is too close to "subhuman." "The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away," is followed by the NME saying OH DEAR NOT AGAIN.
He did everything he could to invoke racism without actually making a deliberately racist statement. "If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent."
He was being xenophobic, not racist, but the language about the Chinese really stepped over the line.
But then they had to apologize and say "We don't believe Morrissey is racist."
He won because he made comments that would fit perfectly in the category "Things a racist would say" and then he managed to get them to apologize for, in effect, publishing the things he said into their tape recorder. He tried to say his words were edited, but he never said how and he never specifically tried to deny saying any of that, and every bit of it sounds like something he would say.
I think he stopped pursuing the trial further because all they did was print what he said. It goes right along with his lyrics in "Bengali In Platforms." I don't think Morrissey is actually racist in a sense. I doubt he would use slurs, but at the same time I think he believes England is a white country, and I think he believes "England for the English," and that that is not some ironic joke.
I don't know if you're aware but I've written several times that Morrissey is a troll and has been his whole career. National Front Disco works on different levels, but it's an example of his habit of inciting controversy in order to get attention.
In the lyrics of that song he's talking to different people.
There's a country
You don't live there
But one day you would like to
And if you show us what you're made of
Well, you might do

Okay, this applies to the immigrants who would like to live in England, on one level.
But the other reading is that this country he's talking about is an ideal England, one that David and his pals from the National Front could live in if they show what they're made of. White England for the English.
Then he says
"David, we wonder if the thunder is ever really gonna begin" which is sort of mocking and meaning that they aren't really going to do anything. But he says
'Begin, oh begin" like he's goading them.
Again, he's trolling. Trolls know you don't have to believe what you say. Once you get past that, the real fun begins.

My point is that Morrissey is a troll. Morrissey is xenophobic. Morrissey makes statements that could quite easily be seen as racist. And yet he took them to court. They tried to block the suit. He managed to be heard. He got an apology out of it and then he dropped it, because the chances are, if a jury heard the things he said, and failing to find anywhere that the NME actually said he was a racist, but only implied, the way he implied, it's very possible he would not have received satisfaction. But to sum up, it was all about public perception from the start. NME had very limited circulation, but did manage to maximize it with their pretend shock at Morrissey being Morrissey. The fact that they apologized was much bigger news, and that means he won. Usually the headline grabbing charge is on the cover and the retraction is on page 96, but he managed to keep the story going for three whole years.

n the statement published on its website and in the magazine, the NME said: "We wish to make clear that we do not believe that he is a racist.
"We didn't think we were saying he was and we apologise to Morrissey if he or anyone else misunderstood our piece in that way.
"We never set out to upset Morrissey and we hope we can both get back to doing what we do best."

A statement released by the singer's lawyer said: "My client is obviously pleased that the NME have finally and publicly apologised to him.
"This claim was never about financial damages, and no money was sought as part of a settlement.
"The NME apology in itself is settlement enough and it closes the case".

You can stand by your statement that "Morrissey successfully sued the NME" until the cows come home to be slaughtered for his back-stage Cheese but it still doesn't make your statement factually correct, accurate or anything beyond wishful thinking. There's no point even trying to understand what you mean when you write that Morrissey was 'doing very well at the time' as words clearly have whatever meaning you desire from sentence to sentence as the rest of your risible screed proves.

Morrissey was indeed being 'reckless and xenophobic' in my opinion. However, that doesn't make him a racist as xenophobia is a different concept, not that stops you lazily conflating the two distinct issues.

The use of the word 'subspecies' about 1.3 billion Chinese was roundly condemned as racist yet Morrissey signally failed to do his usual hissy fit call in the lawyers stuff, as if he was some rich Royal or Lord using Tort on the lower orders. He didn't sue anyone who called him racist for the use of the word 'subspecies' because he knew he would lose any action on that basis as most reasonable people would accept that the use of the word 'subspecies' in relation to the entire 1.3 billion Chinese nationality persons falls within common sense definitions of racism. You also seem to accept this. I prefer to see the use of this word as proof of Morrissey's inept trolling skills. He fell arse over tit and got caught out on this one so he kept his cheesy gob shut instead of getting all indignant and huffy like he did with the NME. He is a fool who abuses language for promotional purposes but he is not, as far as I can tell, a racist.

" "If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent."

There is absolutely nothing racist or xenophobic about this statement. It is merely inaccurate reportage. I walk through Knightsbridge many a bland day and whilst the majority of accents are upmarket shoppers, tourists and rich residents from foreign countries I also hear the indigenous Sloane Ranger's shrill warbling in Harrods where you have to be careful not to trip over Morrissey in the aisles.

Morrissey has never released the tape recording of his interview with the NME and one can be fairly confident that a key element of the cessation of legal hostilities was a joint undertaking with the NME never to do so. If he was so confident of his position he would have released the tape. He never did. Why?

The fact that the NME apologised for inept reporting is irrelevant. This was a mutual co-dependent act of desperation. They wanted to raised their dying circulation, Morrissey wanted to kick-start his dying career. He deliberately set out to troll the issue of immigration yet again and they deliberately re-ignited the old controversies from earlier in his career. It was a cynical win-win for both Morrissey and the NME: maximum publicity for least cost. Both are equally scurrilous and irrelevant. They were then, they are now.

You are correct in stating that Morrissey is a troll. A singing troll. He now even looks like a genuine troll, like a gnarly Smurf as he ages into bitter failure. He richly deserves all the karmic payback that's come his way with more heading down the pipeline.

Despite Morrissey's decades of trolling immigration and English/British Nationalism debates, he was absolutely nowhere to be seen or heard during the build-up to Brexit, no doubt hiding away in Switzerland on the advice of his tax accountant. When it came to the single most important decision in British political history since WW2 Morrissey kept his trap shut. We should all be grateful but it merely confirms he is utterly irrelevant. He knew if he spoke out for Leave he would alienate his core fanbase in both Scotland and Ireland so he put his ability to sell concert tickets above having any input into the debate. He is not a serious person. He never was. You are wasting your time analysing the rationale behind his lyrics as there is only ever one defining guiding principle: Will these lyrics ignite controversy and make me appear 'radical' thus selling consumer CDs and consumer concert tickets so I can continue to live the life of a moderately successful C List international music entrepreneur? He is a busted flush, exposed as a total crank-fraud who pillaged Radical Art to use as Radical Chic. He will be dismissed and damned as a charlatan by posterity, but I'm doing it right here, right now. f*** Morrissey.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
Brummie, I'll answer this later but I'm getting the feeling that it doesn't matter what I say because you want me to have said and meant something else.
Also, I was going to be upset that Kewpie called me a troll on a post that is not trolling in any way and then I saw her ratings are 6+ and 2- so I guess no one really cares what she writes either way.
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy - "Facebook Non-Entity"
Brummie, I'll answer this later but I'm getting the feeling that it doesn't matter what I say because you want me to have said and meant something else.
Also, I was going to be upset that Kewpie called me a troll on a post that is not trolling in any way and then I saw her ratings are 6+ and 2- so I guess no one really cares what she writes either way.


Kewpie has also designated one of my comments as 'troll'. As if anyone with a brain gives a damn what she thinks. I certainly don't.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
You can stand by your statement that "Morrissey successfully sued the NME" until the cows come home to be slaughtered for his back-stage Cheese but it still doesn't make your statement factually correct, accurate or anything beyond wishful thinking. There's no point even trying to understand what you mean when you write that Morrissey was 'doing very well at the time' as words clearly have whatever meaning you desire from sentence to sentence as the rest of your risible screed proves.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/oct/18/morrissey-nme-libel-case-jury
"Catrin Evans, the solicitor acting for McNicholas and IPC, told the high court on Tuesday that the case should be struck out because the three-year delay in proceedings showed that Morrissey was "not really interested" in the libel claim.


Evans argued that there was no evidence of Morrissey being harmed by republication
of the NME interview, in which the singer claimed that "the higher the influx [of non-British people] into England the more the British identity disappears". "
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-china-subspecies-racism
"Simon Price, a music journalist who has followed Morrissey's career closely, said his die-hard fans who have idolised him for more than 25 years would be unlikely to desert him, but others would be "appalled, if not exactly surprised".

He added: "For Morrissey's hardcore fan base, no matter what he says he can do no wrong, but this is not going to make those in the media feel favourably toward him and lots of doors will be shut to him that maybe had been ajar in the past."

http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/nme-and-morrissey-settle-over-racism-claims/
"
NME’s publisher IPC Media had initially asked that the case be dismissed, arguing that it would be unfair to expect McNicholas, the interviewer Tim Jonze and then NME editor Krissi Murison-Hodge (Dep Ed at the time of the interview’s publication) to remember conversations and editorial decisions had and made over four years ago. The company also pointed out that the fact that Morrissey had enjoyed much success as a recording and performing artist in the intervening years made a mockery of his claim the interview had harmed his reputation.

When those arguments were rejected, IPC said, as people tend to in these situations, that it was looking forward to its day in court. But sadly that day will never come, because an out of court settlement was announced yesterday.


Morrissey was indeed being 'reckless and xenophobic' in my opinion. However, that doesn't make him a racist as xenophobia is a different concept, not that stops you lazily conflating the two distinct issues.
The use of the word 'subspecies' about 1.3 billion Chinese was roundly condemned as racist yet Morrissey signally failed to do his usual hissy fit call in the lawyers stuff, as if he was some rich Royal or Lord using Tort on the lower orders. He didn't sue anyone who called him racist for the use of the word 'subspecies' because he knew he would lose any action on that basis as most reasonable people would accept that the use of the word 'subspecies' in relation to the entire 1.3 billion Chinese nationality persons falls within common sense definitions of racism. You also seem to accept this. I prefer to see the use of this word as proof of Morrissey's inept trolling skills. He fell arse over tit and got caught out on this one so he kept his cheesy gob shut instead of getting all indignant and huffy like he did with the NME. He is a fool who abuses language for promotional purposes but he is not, as far as I can tell, a racist.
From Guardian, linked above.
A spokesman for Love Music Hate Racism, which received a donation of £28,000 from the singer in 2008 after his apparently anti-immigration comments made in music magazine NME convulsed the media, said it would be unable to accept support from Morrissey again if he did not rescind or dispute today's comments.

"It really is just crude racism," said Martin Smith. "When you start using language like 'subspecies', you are entering into dark and murky water. I don't think we would, or could, ask him to come back after that'

Simon Price, again: ""What are the apologists going to say this time? It looks like in his old age Morrissey has forgotten to include the ambiguity, like he has done in the past. Maybe he just doesn't care any more."

So, the Rock Against Racism rep think is it's racism, of course, and the rock writer agrees but thinks it's more like lazy trolling.
You also say it is trolling, and say the statement itself is racist, but doesn't make him racist.
I think he is xenophobic, and not necessarily racist. He feels that if people would stay in their own countries he wouldn't have a problem. He just doesn't want them to come and change the identity of England.
This is really splitting hairs, though.
There is more agreement than disagreement. I think "subspecies" was intentionally shocking language and therefore trolling. The question really is, does making a racist statement make someone a racist. You say no. The spokesman and the rock writer say yes. I see both sides. But then I remember Morrissey's long ago quote that "black people and white people are never going to get along." It's pretty hard not to see that as racist, in that he is saying black people are a distinct group, and white people are another distinct group, which is really stupid at the least. Maybe the question is "Morrissey: Racist or Simple?"

" "If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent."

There is absolutely nothing racist or xenophobic about this statement. It is merely inaccurate reportage. I walk through Knightsbridge many a bland day and whilst the majority of accents are upmarket shoppers, tourists and rich residents from foreign countries I also hear the indigenous Sloane Ranger's shrill warbling in Harrods where you have to be careful not to trip over Morrissey in the aisles. .
You COULD see this as neutral, but he's not saying "I love the international feeling of Knightsbridge." In the context of "If you travel to Germany, it's still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity," this is saying "England is being thrown away."
It's clearly xenophobic in context.
Morrissey has never released the tape recording of his interview with the NME and one can be fairly confident that a key element of the cessation of legal hostilities was a joint undertaking with the NME never to do so. If he was so confident of his position he would have released the tape. He never did. Why?
Because, in my opinion, he probably said exactly what they quoted him as saying. He also never denied any specific quote or tried to restate anything.
The fact that the NME apologised for inept reporting is irrelevant. This was a mutual co-dependent act of desperation. They wanted to raised their dying circulation, Morrissey wanted to kick-start his dying career. He deliberately set out to troll the issue of immigration yet again and they deliberately re-ignited the old controversies from earlier in his career. It was a cynical win-win for both Morrissey and the NME: maximum publicity for least cost. Both are equally scurrilous and irrelevant. They were then, they are now.
I think it was a victory because in fact they never said he was a racist. He made comments and then when his own statements were published took offense, or pretended to, when the article got the reception any sane person would expect. I believe he lied in saying his words were edited.
Also, to be completely honest, the apology was more, "Sorry if we offended you." But Morrissey managed to achieve a victory because public perception is that NME apologized.
You are correct in stating that Morrissey is a troll. A singing troll. He now even looks like a genuine troll, like a gnarly Smurf as he ages into bitter failure. He richly deserves all the karmic payback that's come his way with more heading down the pipeline.
And he's been doing it his entire career.
Despite Morrissey's decades of trolling immigration and English/British Nationalism debates, he was absolutely nowhere to be seen or heard during the build-up to Brexit, no doubt hiding away in Switzerland on the advice of his tax accountant. When it came to the single most important decision in British political history since WW2 Morrissey kept his trap shut. We should all be grateful but it merely confirms he is utterly irrelevant. He knew if he spoke out for Leave he would alienate his core fanbase in both Scotland and Ireland so he put his ability to sell concert tickets above having any input into the debate. He is not a serious person. He never was. You are wasting your time analysing the rationale behind his lyrics as there is only ever one defining guiding principle: Will these lyrics ignite controversy and make me appear 'radical' thus selling consumer CDs and consumer concert tickets so I can continue to live the life of a moderately successful C List international music entrepreneur? He is a busted flush, exposed as a total crank-fraud who pillaged Radical Art to use as Radical Chic. He will be dismissed and damned as a charlatan by posterity, but I'm doing it right here, right now. f*** Morrissey.
True! Good advice.
I think we agree on more in this than we disagree. I feel you misunderstood or I was not careful to be understood. The only thing to discuss is what is meant by "winning" the lawsuit. He was never going to receive damages. There weren't any. Besides that it's just a question of whether he can be held to the attention making statements he makes. And he's said so many things.... Bombing the homes of research scientists comes to mind. If he really stood for that he has the resources to see it done. The fact that he acts as a puppet for PETA makes me question his intelligence if not his sincerity. He boycotts Canada because PETA boycotts Canada but will play China, or the US for that matter? And the comment about Madonna's son was made a day after a meeting with Ingrid from PETA. She fed him that line. It is in their style.
Playing that slaughterhouse video during a concert is defensible I guess but I think sitting through "Meat Is Murder" would be torture enough. I don't eat animals and I don't want to watch them tortured. What kind of person can play that video and then go into the next number like nothing happened?
To bring it back on topic, I tried the game. I clicked the arrow and started seeing the new video for Meat Is Murder, but that kind of thing upsets me and I didn't watch.
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy - "Facebook Non-Entity"
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/oct/18/morrissey-nme-libel-case-jury
"Catrin Evans, the solicitor acting for McNicholas and IPC, told the high court on Tuesday that the case should be struck out because the three-year delay in proceedings showed that Morrissey was "not really interested" in the libel claim.


Evans argued that there was no evidence of Morrissey being harmed by republication
of the NME interview, in which the singer claimed that "the higher the influx [of non-British people] into England the more the British identity disappears". "
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-china-subspecies-racism
"Simon Price, a music journalist who has followed Morrissey's career closely, said his die-hard fans who have idolised him for more than 25 years would be unlikely to desert him, but others would be "appalled, if not exactly surprised".

He added: "For Morrissey's hardcore fan base, no matter what he says he can do no wrong, but this is not going to make those in the media feel favourably toward him and lots of doors will be shut to him that maybe had been ajar in the past."

http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/nme-and-morrissey-settle-over-racism-claims/
"
NME’s publisher IPC Media had initially asked that the case be dismissed, arguing that it would be unfair to expect McNicholas, the interviewer Tim Jonze and then NME editor Krissi Murison-Hodge (Dep Ed at the time of the interview’s publication) to remember conversations and editorial decisions had and made over four years ago. The company also pointed out that the fact that Morrissey had enjoyed much success as a recording and performing artist in the intervening years made a mockery of his claim the interview had harmed his reputation.

When those arguments were rejected, IPC said, as people tend to in these situations, that it was looking forward to its day in court. But sadly that day will never come, because an out of court settlement was announced yesterday.



From Guardian, linked above.
A spokesman for Love Music Hate Racism, which received a donation of £28,000 from the singer in 2008 after his apparently anti-immigration comments made in music magazine NME convulsed the media, said it would be unable to accept support from Morrissey again if he did not rescind or dispute today's comments.

"It really is just crude racism," said Martin Smith. "When you start using language like 'subspecies', you are entering into dark and murky water. I don't think we would, or could, ask him to come back after that'

Simon Price, again: ""What are the apologists going to say this time? It looks like in his old age Morrissey has forgotten to include the ambiguity, like he has done in the past. Maybe he just doesn't care any more."

So, the Rock Against Racism rep think is it's racism, of course, and the rock writer agrees but thinks it's more like lazy trolling.
You also say it is trolling, and say the statement itself is racist, but doesn't make him racist.
I think he is xenophobic, and not necessarily racist. He feels that if people would stay in their own countries he wouldn't have a problem. He just doesn't want them to come and change the identity of England.
This is really splitting hairs, though.
There is more agreement than disagreement. I think "subspecies" was intentionally shocking language and therefore trolling. The question really is, does making a racist statement make someone a racist. You say no. The spokesman and the rock writer say yes. I see both sides. But then I remember Morrissey's long ago quote that "black people and white people are never going to get along." It's pretty hard not to see that as racist, in that he is saying black people are a distinct group, and white people are another distinct group, which is really stupid at the least. Maybe the question is "Morrissey: Racist or Simple?"


You COULD see this as neutral, but he's not saying "I love the international feeling of Knightsbridge." In the context of "If you travel to Germany, it's still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity," this is saying "England is being thrown away."
It's clearly xenophobic in context.

Because, in my opinion, he probably said exactly what they quoted him as saying. He also never denied any specific quote or tried to restate anything.

I think it was a victory because in fact they never said he was a racist. He made comments and then when his own statements were published took offense, or pretended to, when the article got the reception any sane person would expect. I believe he lied in saying his words were edited.
Also, to be completely honest, the apology was more, "Sorry if we offended you." But Morrissey managed to achieve a victory because public perception is that NME apologized.

And he's been doing it his entire career.

True! Good advice.
I think we agree on more in this than we disagree. I feel you misunderstood or I was not careful to be understood. The only thing to discuss is what is meant by "winning" the lawsuit. He was never going to receive damages. There weren't any. Besides that it's just a question of whether he can be held to the attention making statements he makes. And he's said so many things.... Bombing the homes of research scientists comes to mind. If he really stood for that he has the resources to see it done. The fact that he acts as a puppet for PETA makes me question his intelligence if not his sincerity. He boycotts Canada because PETA boycotts Canada but will play China, or the US for that matter? And the comment about Madonna's son was made a day after a meeting with Ingrid from PETA. She fed him that line. It is in their style.
Playing that slaughterhouse video during a concert is defensible I guess but I think sitting through "Meat Is Murder" would be torture enough. I don't eat animals and I don't want to watch them tortured. What kind of person can play that video and then go into the next number like nothing happened?
To bring it back on topic, I tried the game. I clicked the arrow and started seeing the new video for Meat Is Murder, but that kind of thing upsets me and I didn't watch.

Morrissey is not a serious person and no serious person now takes him seriously. The only reason left to seriously study his clown-arse career descent into oblivion is to try and fathom how somebody now so clearly exposed as a mendacious troll was given a pass for so long by conventional media consensus. The answer is that he was playing the 'rock music is controversial and Radical' game and the NME and others needed such fictions to ply their tawdry trade as a so-called 'radical' music periodical. Both were just opportunistic hucksters working with each other to boost Morrissey The Singing Troll as a USP for both their media profits and his profits as an entertainment entrepreneur.

He has only gone Vegan because the sheer tsunami of logic of my arguments forced him to. He had ZERO moral credibility to lecture audiences with 'Meat Is Murder' whilst digesting his back-stage rider Kerrygold Cheese for 3 decades. I have bebunked him as a fool and his career and posthumous reputation are now in ruins. Only people as deluded as himself now take him remotely seriously. The rest of us just enjoy the clown stand up singing troll show. And he is a good singer. A very good Smiths Karaoke singer, at least as good as any of the other Smiths tribute acts out there. I now eagerly await Johnny Marr's Autobiography to see if he hedges his bets for a final Smiths pay-day or tells the truth of how, as a genuine musical visionary, he was sidelined by a vain egotist who was more concerned with trifling % of current accounts than taking The Smiths to genuine global epochal fame that would have matched The Beatles. The Smiths imploded because of Morrissey's personality issues and they have only amplified over the last 3 decades he has spent working as his own tribute act with such gifted collaborators as Stephen Street and Alan Whyte amidst the mediocre chugging contributions of work-horse Dad Rock types such as Boz Boorer and the rest of the 'backing band'.

There is much to enjoy with the current state of affairs with Morrissey but only if one lets go of the idea he is a 'serious person' and/or a 'Radical Artist' and accepts he is just The Boy Who Got Lucky, a gormless chancer from Manchester who fooled the world for a while then blew it spectacularly. Thank goodness we were gifted with Bowie in this planetary era!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Morrissey is not a serious person and no serious person now takes him seriously. The only reason left to seriously study his clown-arse career descent into oblivion is to try and fathom how somebody now so clearly exposed as a mendacious troll was given a pass for so long by conventional media consensus. The answer is that he was playing the 'rock music is controversial and Radical' game and the NME and others needed such fictions to ply their tawdry trade as a so-called 'radical' music periodical. Both were just opportunistic hucksters working with each other to boost Morrissey The Singing Troll as a USP for both their media profits and his profits as an entertainment entrepreneur.

He has only gone Vegan because the sheer tsunami of logic of my arguments forced him to. He had ZERO moral credibility to lecture audiences with 'Meat Is Murder' whilst digesting his back-stage rider Kerrygold Cheese for 3 decades. I have bebunked him as a fool and his career and posthumous reputation are now in ruins. Only people as deluded as himself now take him remotely seriously. The rest of us just enjoy the clown stand up singing troll show. And he is a good singer. A very good Smiths Karaoke singer, at least as good as any of the other Smiths tribute acts out there. I now eagerly await Johnny Marr's Autobiography to see if he hedges his bets for a final Smiths pay-day or tells the truth of how, as a genuine musical visionary, he was sidelined by a vain egotist who was more concerned with trifling % of current accounts than taking The Smiths to genuine global epochal fame that would have matched The Beatles. The Smiths imploded because of Morrissey's personality issues and they have only amplified over the last 3 decades he has spent working as his own tribute act with such gifted collaborators as Stephen Street and Alan Whyte amidst the mediocre chugging contributions of work-horse Dad Rock types such as Boz Boorer and the rest of the 'backing band'.

There is much to enjoy with the current state of affairs with Morrissey but only if one lets go of the idea he is a 'serious person' and/or a 'Radical Artist' and accepts he is just The Boy Who Got Lucky, a gormless chancer from Manchester who fooled the world for a while then blew it spectacularly. Thank goodness we were gifted with Bowie in this planetary era!

Let me get this straight....you think a little person like yourself has single handedly had a major impact on shaping Morrissey's diet, and then have the audacity to accuse HIM of being deluded!?

You're not very bright are you?
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy - "Facebook Non-Entity"
Let me get this straight....you think a little person like yourself has single handedly had a major impact on shaping Morrissey's diet, and then have the audacity to accuse HIM of being deluded!?

You're not very bright are you?

Correct. Morrissey had no choice but to submit to the logic of my arguments or face total ignominy and ridicule. He's mouting a face-saving Operation Vegan but it's too late.

I'm not 'little'. I'm 6ft 2in. And I have a big cock. Also, objectively, according to recognised tests, I'm one of the smartest people on the planet so, yes, I'm very bright. Incandescently so.

I trust this reply is helpful to you.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Morrissey is not a serious person and no serious person now takes him seriously. The only reason left to seriously study his clown-arse career descent into oblivion is to try and fathom how somebody now so clearly exposed as a mendacious troll was given a pass for so long by conventional media consensus. The answer is that he was playing the 'rock music is controversial and Radical' game and the NME and others needed such fictions to ply their tawdry trade as a so-called 'radical' music periodical. Both were just opportunistic hucksters working with each other to boost Morrissey The Singing Troll as a USP for both their media profits and his profits as an entertainment entrepreneur.

He has only gone Vegan because the sheer tsunami of logic of my arguments forced him to. He had ZERO moral credibility to lecture audiences with 'Meat Is Murder' whilst digesting his back-stage rider Kerrygold Cheese for 3 decades. I have bebunked him as a fool and his career and posthumous reputation are now in ruins. Only people as deluded as himself now take him remotely seriously. The rest of us just enjoy the clown stand up singing troll show. And he is a good singer. A very good Smiths Karaoke singer, at least as good as any of the other Smiths tribute acts out there. I now eagerly await Johnny Marr's Autobiography to see if he hedges his bets for a final Smiths pay-day or tells the truth of how, as a genuine musical visionary, he was sidelined by a vain egotist who was more concerned with trifling % of current accounts than taking The Smiths to genuine global epochal fame that would have matched The Beatles. The Smiths imploded because of Morrissey's personality issues and they have only amplified over the last 3 decades he has spent working as his own tribute act with such gifted collaborators as Stephen Street and Alan Whyte amidst the mediocre chugging contributions of work-horse Dad Rock types such as Boz Boorer and the rest of the 'backing band'.

There is much to enjoy with the current state of affairs with Morrissey but only if one lets go of the idea he is a 'serious person' and/or a 'Radical Artist' and accepts he is just The Boy Who Got Lucky, a gormless chancer from Manchester who fooled the world for a while then blew it spectacularly. Thank goodness we were gifted with Bowie in this planetary era!

Oh dear, you are an even bigger berk than any of us realised if you think the Smiths would have got anywhere near the level of the Beatles' fame/success. Put simply, most people hate (or at least strongly dislike) the sound of Morrissey's singing voice - it doesn't matter how good the music is. The Smiths would never have got bigger than a quite successful indie pop group despite being massively influential and hugely critically acclaimed. As for Marr being a musical visionary, it's true he came up with a few good pop songs in the Smiths but his post Electronic stuff has been mediocre, and his more recent solo album was absolutely f***ing awful whereas World Peace was actually pretty good musically, if not lyrically. Marr needs Morrissey now more than ever - that's probably why it was Marr who most recently tried to get the Smiths back together.
Alan Whyte a gifted collaborator? He was fitfully pretty good but he provided Morrissey with more joyless chug-rock that any of his other songwriters. Pick the dreariest plodding songs that Morrissey co-wrote between 95 and 09, and the chances are the music was written by Whyte.
 

rifke

bodhisattva
Correct. Morrissey had no choice but to submit to the logic of my arguments or face total ignominy and ridicule. He's mouting a face-saving Operation Vegan but it's too late.

I'm not 'little'. I'm 6ft 2in. And I have a big cock. Also, objectively, according to recognised tests, I'm one of the smartest people on the planet so, yes, I'm very bright. Incandescently so.

I trust this reply is helpful to you.
i always imagined you to have a big boulderous head too. with skin like raw hamburger. is that true too?!
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/oct/18/morrissey-nme-libel-case-jury
"Catrin Evans, the solicitor acting for McNicholas and IPC, told the high court on Tuesday that the case should be struck out because the three-year delay in proceedings showed that Morrissey was "not really interested" in the libel claim.


Evans argued that there was no evidence of Morrissey being harmed by republication
of the NME interview, in which the singer claimed that "the higher the influx [of non-British people] into England the more the British identity disappears". "
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-china-subspecies-racism
"Simon Price, a music journalist who has followed Morrissey's career closely, said his die-hard fans who have idolised him for more than 25 years would be unlikely to desert him, but others would be "appalled, if not exactly surprised".

He added: "For Morrissey's hardcore fan base, no matter what he says he can do no wrong, but this is not going to make those in the media feel favourably toward him and lots of doors will be shut to him that maybe had been ajar in the past."

http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/nme-and-morrissey-settle-over-racism-claims/
"
NME’s publisher IPC Media had initially asked that the case be dismissed, arguing that it would be unfair to expect McNicholas, the interviewer Tim Jonze and then NME editor Krissi Murison-Hodge (Dep Ed at the time of the interview’s publication) to remember conversations and editorial decisions had and made over four years ago. The company also pointed out that the fact that Morrissey had enjoyed much success as a recording and performing artist in the intervening years made a mockery of his claim the interview had harmed his reputation.

When those arguments were rejected, IPC said, as people tend to in these situations, that it was looking forward to its day in court. But sadly that day will never come, because an out of court settlement was announced yesterday.



From Guardian, linked above.
A spokesman for Love Music Hate Racism, which received a donation of £28,000 from the singer in 2008 after his apparently anti-immigration comments made in music magazine NME convulsed the media, said it would be unable to accept support from Morrissey again if he did not rescind or dispute today's comments.

"It really is just crude racism," said Martin Smith. "When you start using language like 'subspecies', you are entering into dark and murky water. I don't think we would, or could, ask him to come back after that'

Simon Price, again: ""What are the apologists going to say this time? It looks like in his old age Morrissey has forgotten to include the ambiguity, like he has done in the past. Maybe he just doesn't care any more."

So, the Rock Against Racism rep think is it's racism, of course, and the rock writer agrees but thinks it's more like lazy trolling.
You also say it is trolling, and say the statement itself is racist, but doesn't make him racist.
I think he is xenophobic, and not necessarily racist. He feels that if people would stay in their own countries he wouldn't have a problem. He just doesn't want them to come and change the identity of England.
This is really splitting hairs, though.
There is more agreement than disagreement. I think "subspecies" was intentionally shocking language and therefore trolling. The question really is, does making a racist statement make someone a racist. You say no. The spokesman and the rock writer say yes. I see both sides. But then I remember Morrissey's long ago quote that "black people and white people are never going to get along." It's pretty hard not to see that as racist, in that he is saying black people are a distinct group, and white people are another distinct group, which is really stupid at the least. Maybe the question is "Morrissey: Racist or Simple?"


You COULD see this as neutral, but he's not saying "I love the international feeling of Knightsbridge." In the context of "If you travel to Germany, it's still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity," this is saying "England is being thrown away."
It's clearly xenophobic in context.

Because, in my opinion, he probably said exactly what they quoted him as saying. He also never denied any specific quote or tried to restate anything.

I think it was a victory because in fact they never said he was a racist. He made comments and then when his own statements were published took offense, or pretended to, when the article got the reception any sane person would expect. I believe he lied in saying his words were edited.
Also, to be completely honest, the apology was more, "Sorry if we offended you." But Morrissey managed to achieve a victory because public perception is that NME apologized.

And he's been doing it his entire career.

True! Good advice.
I think we agree on more in this than we disagree. I feel you misunderstood or I was not careful to be understood. The only thing to discuss is what is meant by "winning" the lawsuit. He was never going to receive damages. There weren't any. Besides that it's just a question of whether he can be held to the attention making statements he makes. And he's said so many things.... Bombing the homes of research scientists comes to mind. If he really stood for that he has the resources to see it done. The fact that he acts as a puppet for PETA makes me question his intelligence if not his sincerity. He boycotts Canada because PETA boycotts Canada but will play China, or the US for that matter? And the comment about Madonna's son was made a day after a meeting with Ingrid from PETA. She fed him that line. It is in their style.
Playing that slaughterhouse video during a concert is defensible I guess but I think sitting through "Meat Is Murder" would be torture enough. I don't eat animals and I don't want to watch them tortured. What kind of person can play that video and then go into the next number like nothing happened?
To bring it back on topic, I tried the game. I clicked the arrow and started seeing the new video for Meat Is Murder, but that kind of thing upsets me and I didn't watch.

Wow. You and Brummie have both put a lot out there to take in and assimilate. All of what you put forth may be true, but for me Morrissey lives below or above all of this.

He is not perfect, but he is not Hitler, Manson, or Mussolini either. He is imperfect. With flaws, many flaws perhaps, but that is what drew me to him in the first place.

Why expect him to be Jesus? That is a lot to live up to. Johnny Cash wrote the song I Walk the Line while cheating on his wife. Morrissey may have eaten cheese, but his heart is in the right place even if his actions don't mirror the lofty goals of what he puts forth in his music.

No free pass... I get that, but let the first man with no sin cast the first stone...right? Fame on the back of exploitation of animal cruelty? I don't think so. Misguided maybe, but this whole conspiracy theory BS has pushed the boundaries of common sense. Which I'm against.

This dissection of him like a frog in biology class tends to turn my stomach a bit, but it is the easiest of endeavors to point out the faults in a person. They are after all right there on the surface. But to take the time to truly study a person's intentions, even if incomplete or seemingly incongruous, requires an ability to apply a certain measure of empathy that might be too exhausting for some.

I will continue to read what the intelligentsia write here, but always taken with a grain of salt.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Wow. You and Brummie have both put a lot out there to take in and assimilate. All of what you put forth may be true, but for me Morrissey lives below or above all of this.

He is not perfect, but he is not Hitler, Manson, or Mussolini either. He is imperfect. With flaws, many flaws perhaps, but that is what drew me to him in the first place.

Why expect him to be Jesus? That is a lot to live up to. Johnny Cash wrote the song I Walk the Line while cheating on his wife. Morrissey may have eaten cheese, but his heart is in the right place even if his actions don't mirror the lofty goals of what he puts forth in his music.

No free pass... I get that, but let the first man with no sin cast the first stone...right? Fame on the back of exploitation of animal cruelty? I don't think so. Misguided maybe, but this whole conspiracy theory BS has pushed the boundaries of common sense. Which I'm against.

This dissection of him like a frog in biology class tends to turn my stomach a bit, but it is the easiest of endeavors to point out the faults in a person. They are after all right there on the surface. But to take the time to truly study a person's intentions, even if incomplete or seemingly incongruous, requires an ability to apply a certain measure of empathy that might be too exhausting for some.

I will continue to read what the intelligentsia write here, but always taken with a grain of salt.
He is just "Human, all too human" as my friend Nietzsche would say.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
Wow. You and Brummie have both put a lot out there to take in and assimilate. All of what you put forth may be true, but for me Morrissey lives below or above all of this.

He is not perfect, but he is not Hitler, Manson, or Mussolini either. He is imperfect. With flaws, many flaws perhaps, but that is what drew me to him in the first place.

Why expect him to be Jesus? That is a lot to live up to. Johnny Cash wrote the song I Walk the Line while cheating on his wife. Morrissey may have eaten cheese, but his heart is in the right place even if his actions don't mirror the lofty goals of what he puts forth in his music.

No free pass... I get that, but let the first man with no sin cast the first stone...right? Fame on the back of exploitation of animal cruelty? I don't think so. Misguided maybe, but this whole conspiracy theory BS has pushed the boundaries of common sense. Which I'm against.

This dissection of him like a frog in biology class tends to turn my stomach a bit, but it is the easiest of endeavors to point out the faults in a person. They are after all right there on the surface. But to take the time to truly study a person's intentions, even if incomplete or seemingly incongruous, requires an ability to apply a certain measure of empathy that might be too exhausting for some.

I will continue to read what the intelligentsia write here, but always taken with a grain of salt.

I don't see it as pointing out his faults. It is about trying to understand his statements. Morrissey is hardly the most empathetic person, and I'm only talking about his persona and his music.
There are two ways to look at it. Either he just says things randomly or he says things with intention. Do you think he randomly used the word "subspecies?"That would make him unaware of the power of language, and he has written a lot of songs that defy that reading.
So then he must have said it intentionally. The question then is what did he mean?
It's nothing personal. The reason people don't sit around and dissect the words of the singer of Blur is because he didn't say 1 Thatcher should die. 2 Bush should die. 3 Men who torture animals for science should have letterbombs sent to their homes. 4. Will Madonna make her African child into a coat? 5 Mass murder of children? Nothing compared to McDonalds. And on and on and on. When you make statements like that people have a right to try to understand your message and your motives. The alternative is to ignore it like you do when the smelly guy on the train wants to show you proof that Obama is a lizard.
Either Morrissey just says random things or he says things with a purpose.
Nothing written here matters anyway. It's not going to hurt Morrissey's feelings or cost him any money, which really WOULD hurt his feelings. :D

I think you'd have to talk to Brummie about the animal rights exploitation thing. I tend to feel Morrissey is exploited by PETA. Brummie seems to think the animal rights thing was/is part of Morrissey's gimmick.
But I think it's clear that he reacted differently to the Paris attacks than he did to the 2011 Norway attacks. Children killed in Norway (never mind the killer's motives) is not as bad as KFC but when other killer's (never mind their motives) massacre people in Paris, not only is it a tragedy, but there's a "guaranteed number one" record.
Now if I wanted to go full tinfoil hat I'd talk about the motives of the attacks, but even I don't have the secondhand depravity to do that.
Here's your salt but it's not good for you.
industrial-road-salt.jpg
 
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A

Anonymous

Guest
Correct. Morrissey had no choice but to submit to the logic of my arguments or face total ignominy and ridicule. He's mouting a face-saving Operation Vegan but it's too late.

I'm not 'little'. I'm 6ft 2in. And I have a big cock. Also, objectively, according to recognised tests, I'm one of the smartest people on the planet so, yes, I'm very bright. Incandescently so.

I trust this reply is helpful to you.

Ahhh - the ode of the keyboard warrior "I've sat tests which prove I'm smart!". Bless you!

When I said you were "little", I wasn't referring to your physical stature - I think your above average intelligence let you down there....

It's true that a sure sign of above average intelligence is spending vast amounts of time on a forum about an individual you clearly despise! Haha! Surely, as a parent, you MUST have better things to do!? If you don't - I really feel sorry for your offspring.

Ps. I'm 7 foot tall, have a 15 inch cock, and am founding member of Mensa. Honest.

Please reply - you're a hoot!
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy - "Facebook Non-Entity"
i always imagined you to have a big boulderous head too. with skin like raw hamburger. is that true too?!

You're describing my cock when I've had it up someone's arse all night.
 
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