junkee.com: "How Morrissey Ruined Morrissey" (April 20, 2021)

TheSmiths_1985

Well-Known Member
But GS, aren't you completely horrified by the fact that a total stranger doesn't care about you as a person? 😱
I bet he never even wrote you a birthday card. That absolute monster.
And the cretin even has the audacity to charge you actual money for his albums, singles, t-shirts, gigs etc!
 

Angelito

"And if I seem a little strange..."
Guess I can't figure that if Moz was so racist, then how
come half his band ain't white.
Also wonder why the guys in his band would stay
if he was so racist.
Are ya sayin' that the band forgo their dignity just to get
some money?
Given what we know about Morrissey, I'd say yes -- they have indeed swallowed their dignity in favor of money & time in the spotlight. And given every firsthand account we have of what it's like to work with Morrissey, I'd say dissenting opinions are not allowed around him -- so even if they don't agree with him, they know to keep their mouths shut. Sad.
 

Angelito

"And if I seem a little strange..."
He wishes! He and the chap who started this thread. But no, that experience is one that has proven to be unbreakable. I’m very grateful.
I met Donald Trump for about 2 minutes once, years and years ago. He was amiable, warm, and funny. Guess he's an all-around great guy then, right Gregor? I mean, that was my experience meeting him. What else is there to know?

😐
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
Guess I can't figure that if Moz was so racist, then how
come half his band ain't white.
Also wonder why the guys in his band would stay
if he was so racist.
Are ya sayin' that the band forgo their dignity just to get
some money?
This is like Kelly Osbourne asking "If Donald Trump kicks out Latinos who will clean your toilets?"
Guess I can't figure out why you ain't addressin' any of the points the writer makes. Also wonder why you are always writin' in this artificial style.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Given what we know about Morrissey, I'd say yes -- they have indeed swallowed their dignity in favor of money & time in the spotlight. And given every firsthand account we have of what it's like to work with Morrissey, I'd say dissenting opinions are not allowed around him -- so even if they don't agree with him, they know to keep their mouths shut. Sad.
Yes, sign those NDAs, wear the t-shirts on stage or strip down, and never say No.
 

The Wild Turkey

Wild T!
Turkerator
Given what we know about Morrissey, I'd say yes -- they have indeed swallowed their dignity in favor of money & time in the spotlight. And given every firsthand account we have of what it's like to work with Morrissey, I'd say dissenting opinions are not allowed around him -- so even if they don't agree with him, they know to keep their mouths shut. Sad.

If a band member really wanted the spotlight and a way
to get some money, they could quit and say it's cause Moz
is a racist.
Plenty outlets would wanna talk to'em and they'd get offered
many opportune avenues.
So no dice.
Ya sack ain't holdin' seeds.
 

The Wild Turkey

Wild T!
Turkerator
This is like Kelly Osbourne asking "If Donald Trump kicks out Latinos who will clean your toilets?"
Guess I can't figure out why you ain't addressin' any of the points the writer makes. Also wonder why you are always writin' in this artificial style.

Ya worried about Kelly Osbourne and the toilets?
Haha, who cares.
 
V

Vegan Cro Spirit .777

Guest
I met Donald Trump for about 2 minutes once, years and years ago. He was amiable, warm, and funny. Guess he's an all-around great guy then, right Gregor? I mean, that was my experience meeting him. What else is there to know?

😐
:crazy:

Oy have you met famous punk rocker BGV?:lbf:
 

Angelito

"And if I seem a little strange..."
If a band member really wanted the spotlight and a way
to get some money, they could quit and say it's cause Moz
is a racist.
Plenty outlets would wanna talk to'em and they'd get offered
many opportune avenues.
So no dice.
Ya sack ain't holdin' seeds.
With the music they've written for Morrissey, who's going to want to hire them? Their plodding brand of stodge-rock ain't exactly selling records these days. Morrissey is their meal ticket and they know it.
Ya brain ain't holdin' cells.
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
I think that this article has some problems. A really common problem in my opinion when I'm reading people's arguments is that they try to add too many examples of "evidence" to make their case.
If you have one very strong piece of evidence to support your opinion, focus on that. Don't add everything you can think of. The person reading your argument is going to become fatigued, especially if you're trying to convince them to change their views. Maybe worse is that your weakest piece of evidence will give them something to focus on and can derail your argument.
In this article I think this is the weakest link. "According to a biography of the singer written by journalist Johnny Rogan, Morrissey was only a teenager when he stated, “I don’t hate Pakistanis, but I dislike them immensely.”"
To believe this we have to trust Johnny Rogan and his sources. This is hearsay. It wouldn't make it in court. I understand that this is just an article and maybe shouldn't be held to that standard but I think it's a good way an argument.
Members the Morrissey cult will excuse anything he says anyway. For example, I think that to the average reader with no strong opinions about Morrissey either way is going to find the "subspecies" remark to be persuasive.
"Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies."
The cult will say that "you can't help but feel" modifies "the Chinese are a subspecies" sufficiently to change the meaning. They sometimes say that he was angry at the images, he'd seen, and that's understandable.
But these are excuses. It's reminds me of the way people act in abusive relationships. "I didn't say you were a stupid bitch. I said you were acting like a stupid bitch. Anyway, I was angry at the time."

This doesn't work for me because Morrissey is fairly capable at using language to convey meaning, and "subspecies" like many of his other remarks, I feel, was chosen to get attention. The cult will say that he did want to bring attention to animal cruelty, so he intentionally stepped on this landmine. Okay, but then don't complain when your leg gets blown off.
The other option is that poor old Morrissey just says things accidentally and doesn't really mean them. Do you believe that?

I thought that the most insightful part of the article was about Morrissey playing characters, singing "England for the English" in the character of David, basically, or singing the beliefs of the National Front, but "taking a neutral stance."
I think the song is there to be interpreted as you want to and doesn't really work as evidence, but I get the point that this sort of new version of Morrissey that has emerged isn't really that new. I bet a lot of us have sung along to the words to that song at a Morrissey show. I just think it's interesting but I don't think that section of the article really proves anything.
I do think most fans have interpreted that song as the character David being lost and drawn into this organization, and that it's not really suggesting that he's making good choices. But he is sympathetic to this character, and that's his right as an artist. I think it's a great song. I'm just saying that there is "a lot to unpack" in it.

So I think it's a pretty interesting article that would have benefited from some editing and I do find the timing of it to be maybe a little exploitative, but that's the way it goes. Morrissey has a great understanding of how to time his messages and he did this with his comments on the deaths of the students at the hands of Anders Breivik, the deaths of concert attendees at the Manchester Ariana Grande concert, and he attempted to get a "guaranteed number one" because of the deaths of over a hundred people in the Paris attacks of 2015.

Morrissey should have just let this Simpsons thing go without comment because it's become huge and it's unlikely to go away very quickly. Every bored journalist who needs some content can crank out a story on this and Morrissey has made it very easy for them to do so.
 

Angelito

"And if I seem a little strange..."
A really common problem in my opinion when I'm reading people's arguments is that they try to add too many examples of "evidence" to make their case.
Yeah, the defense team said the same thing in the Chauvin trial. "Enough already with the evidence!"
 
T

the cult

Guest
For example, I think that to the average reader with no strong opinions about Morrissey either way is going to find the "subspecies" remark to be persuasive.
"Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies."
The cult will say that "you can't help but feel" modifies "the Chinese are a subspecies" sufficiently to change the meaning. They sometimes say that he was angry at the images, he'd seen, and that's understandable.
But these are excuses. It's reminds me of the way people act in abusive relationships. "I didn't say you were a stupid bitch. I said you were acting like a stupid bitch. Anyway, I was angry at the time."

This doesn't work for me because Morrissey is fairly capable at using language to convey meaning, and "subspecies" like many of his other remarks, I feel, was chosen to get attention. The cult will say that he did want to bring attention to animal cruelty, so he intentionally stepped on this landmine. Okay, but then don't complain when your leg gets blown off.
The other option is that poor old Morrissey just says things accidentally and doesn't really mean them. Do you believe that?

No, I don’t believe that. I don’t believe the other narrative either.

Morrissey says things; he always has and always will. In the 80’s he expressed being anti monarchy with QID lyrics about heads in slings, wrote romantic songs that included being ran over by a ten ton truck,
compared school to torture, he’s since then said that Elton John’s head on a silver plate wouldn’t be murder, responded with “I didn’t mean to” to a fan who said he had made her so happy, I could go on and so could you.

So yes, I agree that he is capable of using language to convey meaning. In his own strange way. He never did it in a very normal or societally acceptable fashion, however.
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
No, I don’t believe that. I don’t believe the other narrative either.

Morrissey says things; he always has and always will. In the 80’s he expressed being anti monarchy with QID lyrics about heads in slings, wrote romantic songs that included being ran over by a ten ton truck,
compared school to torture, he’s since then said that Elton John’s head on a silver plate wouldn’t be murder, responded with “I didn’t mean to” to a fan who said he had made her so happy, I could go on and so could you.

So yes, I agree that he is capable of using language to convey meaning. In his own strange way. He never did it in a very normal or societally acceptable fashion, however.
I didn't say he did? I said that he uses language that he knows will make an impact and sometimes doesn't like the results.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
I didn't say he did? I said that he uses language that he knows will make an impact and sometimes doesn't like the results.

I think he’d like it to make an impact. And I agree, I’m sure he sometimes doesn’t like the results. I mean, a lot of people just don’t care what some animal activist has to say or how expressive or poorly chosen (?) the words they use are, they’ll go on eating other animals, unfortunately.
 

Ratsoup

New Member
What a pile of vapid, wanky c***ery that article is, from an anti-intellect. "Morrissey is racist scum. There were traces of it 33 years ago on Viva Hate with Bengali In Platforms. I started listening to him in 2008. The album was 20 years old by that point. I knew all about it and didn't care less. Now I feel the need to purge myself of my heresy by admitting in public I - LORD IN HEAVEN ABOVE HEAL ME OF MY SIN! - liked a...shakeshiver...racist when I was young and lonely and his work helped me. I repent now, oh Lord, and please heal me for my sins." I actually find the quasi-religious tone to these publicly self-abasing posts from utter c***s to be totally hilarious. Disingenuous, vacuous, and just plain f***ing pathetic.
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
I think he’d like it to make an impact. And I agree, I’m sure he sometimes doesn’t like the results. I mean, a lot of people just don’t care what some animal activist has to say or how expressive or poorly chosen (?) the words they use are, they’ll go on eating other animals, unfortunately.
Right, we've discussed this before and I believe I do understand your point, that he purposely chose his words to make an impact. Sometimes that can backfire and it makes it difficult to blame other people.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
Right, we've discussed this before and I believe I do understand your point, that he purposely chose his words to make an impact.
I’d like to think he may have, but I don’t think we can really be sure. Sometimes things are just said, then it’s too late, we all do it.
Sometimes that can backfire and it makes it difficult to blame other people.

I don’t know about that. I was just remarking that he may not make an impact on those minds he would like to change, so yes, in that way
his words may ‘backfire’ I guess.
But we can’t really blame him for that, in regards to people listening or not.
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
I’d like to think he may have, but I don’t think we can really be sure. Sometimes things are just said, then it’s too late, we all do it.


I don’t know about that. I was just remarking that he may not make an impact on those minds he would like to change, so yes, in that way
his words may ‘backfire’ I guess.
But we can’t really blame him for that, in regards to people listening or not.
I wrote about this in the long post, but I don't blame you if you skipped it. You either have to believe that he says things with intention or that he says things accidentally and is somehow a victim of his own carelessness with language. I believe it is the former. I can remember you making this exact point, that the issue with animal cruelty is so important (I agree) that he purposely chose language that would draw attention.
Certainly I can blame him for his own words.
That was why I said that something he allegedly said about Pakistani people when he was a teenager was the weakest part of that article. It doesn't sound like him to me, but the real issue is that there is no proof.
When it is his own words (which he sometimes denies saying, as in the Der Spiegel matter) of course he can be blamed for the reaction UNLESS he's just a person who randomly says things and doesn't have a very good grasp on language or how the media can sensationalize things. That's the "poor helpless Morrissey" model and it's your decision if that works for you but it doesn't for me.
He's pretty well known for his choice of words and ability to convey a message, and he's been dealing with the media for a long time, so I can't see it as "sometimes things are just said." Maybe at home but not to an interviewer.
 
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