Message to Loaf and Bush Jr.: War with Iraq? Hello no, I would not go!

  • Thread starter Robert Evans - The Comeback Kid
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Robert Evans - The Comeback Kid

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> There are plenty of people on the left support intervention against
> Saddam, and plenty of people on the right who oppose it. So you really
> make no point here. Isn't it better to just get to the substance of the
> policy choices?
OK, Mr. Know It All, let's go...

> If it's all propaganda, why are there 17 U.N. resolutions? Don't wanna
> talk about that? I'd really like to know how I can be a "nazi"
> to certain people on this board simply because I expressed joy that the
> U.N. is acting to inspect Saddam's regime for weapons of mass destruction
> that he AGREED YEARS AGO he'd stop producing. And aren't you concerned
> that the United Nations will become irrelevant if resolutions can be
> defied with no consequence?

I hate Saddam Hussein too. The question is, where does USA have to stop? By your logic, after defeating Iraqi regime, USA must fight all evil anti-democratic regimes on the face of the Earth like... Northern Korea, Cuba, one could add Lebanon, Syria, Iran... I doubt that destiny of our country is to be a world policeman. When America defended herself by destroying evil Taliban, it was a just defense... By supporting and covering for Bin Laden, who attacked Pentagon and WTC, Afghani Taliban made itself a legitimate USA self-defense target... Yet, Bush Jr. didn't give us a single credible proof that Saddam Hussein/Iraq is at any rate, a threat to the USA or somehow connected to September 11 events...
Many peoples, including myself, are suspecting that current Republican administration is using a potential little victorious war to deflect American public attention from dismal economical situation at home... This is an old trick from Kissengerian Political Book of Know How... Yet, this trick could bring a disaster for the Middle East stability for all players, including even Israelis and Iranians, who are Saddam bitter enemies... First of all, destroying Iraqis, would bring a bloody chaos to Iraq, with Kurds, Sunni Muslims (minority in Iraq) and Iranian-supported Shiite Muslims all engaging into civil wars against each other... Secondly, removing Saddam means strengthening Islamic Republic of Iran, the bitter enemy of America, Rasfijani or not... Thirdly, what if hundreds of thousands Iraqi civilians would end dead....??? During Gulf War of 1991, the military action was mostly at desert, and Americans killed mostly Iraqi military-men. Yet, in case of Iraq, military action would be conducted at the midst of narrow dark Middle Eastern casbahs of Iraq inner cities, which means either hand-to-hand face-to-face fighting of Iraqis and American GI OR it would mean an American hi-tech planes erasing those casbahs from the face of the Earth with hundreds of thousands poor inner-city Iraqis women, civilian man and children dying... For what? For the opportunity to install an pro-American Iraqi Karzai-like puppet, who would satisfy an appetite for the cheap Iraqi oil of certain Texas oilman like Bubba and his business buddies Ramsfield and Cheney... But by what price? Perhaps, anti-American massive hate of the Arab street, who would, NATURALLY, to mourn their dead innocents... By the price of thousands of American inner city mostly Black and Hispanic GIs lives, sent to die to provide more oil profits and some real or imaginary American strategy advantage in our business competition for cheap oil with Russians and Europeans...

Sorry, yes, Saddam is evil, yet he is not Adolf Hitler or even a Mussolini... He is a leader of miserable backward Third World country, whose budget may equal a budget of New Jersey or Kentucky... (I must to my homework here!) As evil he is, he was/is never a threat to America... Who is a threat to America?
Perhaps Saudi Arabia, who is supporting REAL AMERICAN enemies such as Bin Laden and Al Quaeda... Also, Israel is not helping America prestige at the Middle East, by terrorizing Palestinians... Instead of hitting Saddam, I would recommend the opposite - to life Iraq economic blockade and stop Iraq civilians suffering... Yet, simultaneously America has all right in the World to encourage Iraqi democratic or progressive leaders in exile to fight Saddam within, and America is entitled to but diplomatic pressure on Saddam. Yet, you Oaf must be an under-informed naive young man, who thinks that Bush Jr. really gives a shit about Kurds or Saddam political prisoners... The name of the game is BIG OIL, the question on mind of Dick and George :) (Cheney and Bush) are OF COURSE, NOT NON-EXISTANT IRAQI THREAT to American security, but OIL PROFITS... Bush and Cheney dislike Saddam cheap oil going to Russia and France, who are economically cooperating with Saddam, they want this oil for themselves, while I as an military-service-age American would say: (sorry for my French): "f*** the oil, I don't mind to pay twice as much for my gas, it is not worthy of dying for"... I want to fight reactionary Islamic terrorists of course, but I'm entitled to ask question: "If Bush is serious in fighting Al Quaeda, why not to stop supporting evil Saudi monarchy? Why not to cater American foreign policy more pro-Arab? Why not to give 5 million Jewish Israelis an American green card and thus solve Israeli-Palestinian conflict for all (just thinking out of the box.. J )?" There are many rational solutions, yet Bush is thinking ultimately for his and his clan profits, not for simple folks' America ultimate well-being...

> Israel (to pick the one and only country
> outside of America that people on this board consider "evil")
> has resolutions against it, too, you know. Wouldn't it be nice to start
> enforcing this shit?

But state of Israel is evil indeed in her roots! Israelis is THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD who is occupying the territories of another sovereign state, the future Palestinian state (West Bank and Gaza Sector plus Eastern Jerusalem) against all international laws. Bush Jr. already promised the world that Palestinian state would exist in 2 years... Even Ariel Sharon made a statement that Palestinian state is a fail accompli, which means that no matter how mainstream Zionist public opinion within Israel is against Palestinian state, it is a fact on the ground and Israel is better learn, likes she/it or not, to live peacefully with their Arab neighbors, or become an International pariah again... Moreover, by continuing their brutal occupation of Arab lands, Israelis are risking that world opinion would re-enact famous UN resolution Zionism Is Racism, which was adopted at 1975 by the majority of Third world countries plus former socialist block, and was REVOKED ON CONDITION OF ISRAEL RECOGNIZING NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS OF PALESTINIANS for their independent state.
Moreover, Israelis engaged now in dirty politics of enticing Russian immigrants to come live in Israel... The fact is (and Russian media recognizes it), that more then 60% of those 1 million plus immigrants are ethnic Russians (while Israel falsely states that they ALL are ethnic Jews) who are coming to Israel for the purpose of escaping Russian hard economic conditions and seeking material well-being... Nothing bad about those aspirations to live better by itself, except the fact that those Russian immigrants are taking over Arab lands, which do belong to Arabs indeed... In modern day Israel, Arabs are prohibited from buying real estate within pre-1967 Israel, and restricted from developing on the occupied territories...

Now think about it, WHAT IF....

Oaf, just imagine, THAT you are not an American Republican and Zionist you are, but an Palestinian, born and raised at Nablus, West Bank, for example... Your ancestors lived in Yaffa (Arab city near modern day Tel Aviv) for thousands of years, from generation to generation. It is your land, your ancestors worked on soil of Palestine, they grew figs and olives, they gave you the love for your land as a heritage. You are not a Jew hater, in opposite, you are an Arab Western-educated intellectual... Now, your granddad was pushed out of his Yaffa home at 1947 by the Stalin-armed and America-supported Zionist Jews (Ben Gurion and company), the year Zionist entity (for your granddad) OR state of Israel (for Israeli Jews) came into being. Your granddad was not serving at Nazi Army, yet he was sacrificed by Powers To Be at 1947 to provide new living space, new state for the EUROPEAN(!!!) Jews, victims of Germany-created and accomplished European Holocaust with 6 million Jews dead... Again, your granddad was naturally pissed at Jews, yet what a simple man can do? He just moved on. He had to make a living at Hebron, city at Jordan and feed his family... where peoples treated him unfairly, 'cause he was a competitor for their livelihood at a poor Arab country with limited resources.. 1967 year came... By that time, your granddad stopped dreaming about pushing Zionists out of his home at Yaffa, being a realist he succumbed to his fate, that he perhaps would never have a chance to visit his home and his Fatherland any more... But, the funny thing, Israelis now visited your granddad and your dad... After 1967 war, which Israelis won 1967 war, helped by superior French and American weaponry. They occupied Hebron (West Bank) against all international laws and started to settle Jewish religious fanatics (settlers) in the midst of Arabs... Settlers had Israeli financial help, water (hot commodity at Palestine), chosen land.... Arabs at West Bank were formally a Jordanian citizens, and they had Islamic schools and internal infrastructure, supported by Jordanians... Yet, actually they were living under foreign occupation, their lands taken away, their dignity put down by armed Israeli military-men, their national pride taken away, their Muslim customs disrespected etc... Now, IMAGINE, as if you were born at occupied Hebron, the grandson of Yaffa-born Palestinian granddad. Say, you are a Palestinian doctor, who works in Israel. You have to live under foreign occupation, your children could be shot either by Israeli tank, or by armed Jewish settler. You have to commute every day to Israel for your hospital-workplace 2 hours one way, 2 hours another, even if in America your 15-miles commute would take you only 15 minutes... Cause Israeli Armed Patrols are deliberately making you to stay in line 1.5 hour at Israeli borders. You see young well-fed Israelis, who are immigrants from Ethiopia or Russia and came to Israel a year ago, and yet those Addis-Ababa-born or Kiev-born Jewish youngsters have a right to make you wait in line for 1.5 hours, a native born Palestinian, to get to... your own home, your own workplace at Yaffa hospital for Arabs... Is it fair? Would you be pissed, dissatisfied, maybe radicalized by HAMAS? You bet you would… I would… Barney would too… My case against Zionism makes some sense, does not it...??? Only secular democratic non-Zionist Palestinian state with both Jews and Arabs equally enjoying fruits of citizenship, and Muslim half-moon and Jewish Star of David both co-existing at Acme future ideal state national flag, would provide the authentic solution of Israeli-Palestinian dispute...

Also, supporting Israel so unconditionally and blindly is also a bad deal to the USA, because supporting 5 million Zionists (many of whose would be too glad to emigrate to the USA or Canada or even Germany only if slightest opportunity occurs) against billion-strength of a Muslim world is simply a bad politics, against REAL NATIVE AMERICAN INTEREST... This irrational politics is influenced by so-called Zionist lobby at Washington (Jewish pro-Israeli business money at politics plus right-wing Christian fundamentalist pro-Israel money, all kinds of AIPACs etc...) Woe to independently thinking US senator who would dare to offend their Jewish or Christian Baptist constituency with slight criticism of modern day Israeli policy! He/she would be financially punished by American Powers To Be! One of the few peoples who courageously dares to be critical about Israel, however meekly, is Southern California Republican Congressman Darrel Issa (Vista/San Clemente) and Black leaders such as LA representative Maxine Waters and Black preacher and former Presidential candidate Jesse Jackson...

> That's not what I said. What I said was in response to people who claim
> they don't know enough to decide what position to take. People who claim
> they aren't being informed, even though they're in the country with the
> freest access to information on earth, in the internet era where
> information is easier to get to than ever before. And, again, to them I
> say, don't sit around and wait for MSNBC to spoon-feed information to you.
> That has nothing to do with whether they draw the same conclusions as I
> do. Informed, good-intentioned, moral people can come down on either side
> (although they've had plenty of time to make their "case" and
> have yet to do so).

Our American tragedy that about 95% of Americans are so isolationist, they don't give a shit about anything "abroad" such as Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 4% of Americans (upper crust) understand it all and deliberately misleading the rest, and only 1% of peoples (mostly non-influential academics, some of them even Jewish like Mr. Noam Chomski and Mr. Finkelstein) both understand and ready to fight for their pro-Palestinian beliefs, in spite of the fear to be labeled as traitors or pro-Arab or Islamists or Anti-Semites (btw, Palestinians are Semites too, like Jews!) or whatever... But, I would better stop here… I’m 100% against militant Islam , I’m for secular Arab world… I’m for strong well-defended America… I’m for executing Bin Laden on electric chair… I’m also for the just solution of Israeli-Palestinian dispute, where all Arab refugees of Naqba (1947) would be able to return to their homes, and both peoples would be able to coexist AS EQUALS, and Zionism would go (together with Soviet-style “communism”) to the ashbins of world history…

> But they're gonna have to have more reasons than that they just can't
> stand Bush. It's a f***ing insult to the people living in misery under
> Saddam to use American partisan politics as your guide for deciding how
> you come down on Iraq policy, which will determine the fate of the Iraqi
> and Kurdish people, not to mention the neighbors of Iraq and the course of
> that region and, well, it's gonna have a pretty big impact on the rest of
> us too. Attempt to rise above the bullshit.

I guess American brutal policy of economic boycott of the Iraq IS A REAL INSULT TO MILLIONS OF IRAQIES. Saddam is eating well and having his share of jewelry and luxurious custom build sport cars and yachts, the simple folks of Iraq are the ones who are really suffering from this stupid arrogant policy of blockade & sanctions... Many Iraqi babies, for example, are dying from malnutrition...

> You don't? Why not?

> Not kill us all. Hold us hostage. Cause an greater confrontation in the
> future, where far more lives will be at risk. f*** up the world economy
> (which btw, would kill people). f*** up the region. Terrify the lives of
> everyone living near him. Potentially give weapons of mass destruction to
> international terrorists. And of course, in his speeches we know his
> ultimate goal is to one day liberate Jerusalem, so yeah, he might nuke
> Israel. His other stated goal is to be the leader of the whole Arab world.
> One plan is to offer a nuclear shield to arab states contingent upon them
> doing as he dictates. He's always wanted to create a super-power in that
> region, led by him.

The truth is, if, God forbid, Arabs would nuke Jerusalem and Israelis – Cairo in mutual madness, it would be a great tragedy, yet it would be at least partially Zionist and American fault. Secular, democratic Jewish-Arab equality state on the place of modern day Israel and Palestine is the best guarantee against future possible bloody f***ing nuclear conflicts with millions of both Jews and Arabs dead. I apologize if I offended some decent folks with this following statement, but what Israel is doing to Palestinians now is Nazi-like actions, just on lesser scale, and therefore Palestinians counter-actions could be humanly understood. I reject Palestinian terrorism of course, but as a human being, I understand what makes peoples to blow themselves (and Israeli civilians) apart, what makes Palestinian terrorists - shaheeds (martyrs on Arabic) tick... Terrorism is wrong, and it brought Palestinians a political disaster, I'm just telling that Palestinian terrorists are not irrational crazy nutty idiots. They are peoples to whom great historic injustice was done by British and American Imperialism at 1947 (Naqba, the day of creation of controversial Israeli state is a Catastrophe on Arabic), and then second great historic injustice was done (1967, Israeli occupation of Syrian Golan Heights, Shaba Farm, West Bank and Gaza, Sinai and Eastern Jerusalem). So far, Israelis gave back only Sinai Peninsula, and, after Oslo “Peace Process” dismal failure, some Palestinians chose a deadly wrong, emotional way to respond to those historic injustices after realizing that it is impossible to defeat FOR NOW American-supported Israeli military.

> The ass I want to kick is Saddam's, and I have no problem being excited
> about that.

Then VOLUNTEER YOUR OWN ASS FOR THE AMERICAN ARMY, YOU ARMCHAIR STALLONE!
Don't make poor peoples with last names like Gonzales or Jackson or Lee to make oil cheaper to your Clevelend lily-white Zionist lawyer ass!

> Should we defeat Saddam on our terms, now, before he has nukes. Or later?

Saddam nukes? Proofs???!!! Give me ironclad facts, maybe you will convince me...

> You can sarcastically say "charming" all you want, but the fact
> is you have not offered one idea of what our policy should be. Do you
> care?

Yes, as human being I care.

> The rest of the world hates us? The *whole* world hates us? News to me.
> Funny how I just read that polls in Iran reveal 3 out of 4 want closer
> relations with America, and the youth of Iran are becoming more and more
> pro-American. Funny, too, how there's a 90 nation international coalition
> fighting Islamic-fascist terrorism in response to 9/11. Also interesting
> how the United Nations Security Counsel came down unanimously for a 17th
> resolution to disarm Saddam.

Well, I love America. I hope no one would hate us. But if I would be an Iraqi woman with her child dead from malnutrition as a result of an American-led anti-Saddam economic sanctions, I would not necessarily harbor a warm, pro-American feelings in my gut...

> But the whole world hates us? You mean all those people who are
> desperately trying to live in America...hate America? And what do they
> think about demoratic Iraqis and Kurds? Do they hate them too?

Kurds are no angels either, for example secular and pro-Western Turkey fights for its territorial integrity with Kurdish bandit Islamists on its South... Anyway, I don't believe Bush cares about Kurds, it is all about BIG & CHEAP OIL...

> I've never seen a world-wide poll of the world to determine world opinion
> on America. I suspect if such a poll could be done it would reveal
> complex, mixed opinions and emotions about the only Super Power left, it's
> spreading culture, and understandably so.
> It's also understandble that in many parts of the world people don't get a
> clear picture. For example, Egypt is currently airing a 41-part TV series
> based on anti-Jewish Nazi conspiracy texts that Hitler himself used. You
> use the word "propaganda" a lot; is that not propaganda?

Well, I'm against Arab Anti-Semitism, of course... Yet, objectively, Zionist crimes do not help to reduce current Arab Anti-Semitism... Of course, Palestinian terror against Israeli civilians does not help to reduce Anti-Arab prejudice of Israelis either… Sigh… Arabs are watching Al Jazeera: Israeli soldiers herding Palestinian civilians and an emotional response must be expected. Jews are watching Israeli TV and innocent’s corpses blown by HAMAS at café or disco… Result: even more mutual hate is generated… All of this makes extremists on both sides happy, indeed… Jews and Arabs worldwide must ask themselves: what are WE doing ON PERSONAL DAILY LEVEL to reduce anti-Semitism and Arab hatred? The best a Jewish or Arab man or woman on the street of Israel or Cleveland could do to combat an evil of Arab Anti-Semitism and Israeli Zionism is to support Palestinian state, reject Zionism as an failed and obsolete ideology and also keep fighting more traditional right-wing Christian and Islamic Anti-Semitism of ignorance... Any form of Anti-Semitism is “bad”, the same is about racist anti-Arab statements of current Israeli leaders like Ariel Sharon and Russian-born Jewish extremist settler Avigdor Lieberman. Maybe the only way to combat ignorance is for simple Jewish and Arab folks to have as much as possible social and economic contacts on daily basis.

Of course, Egypt deserves shame for it’s stupid and reactionary TV show. Objectively, there are some groups of Jewish and Arab peoples in Israel, like Israeli Communists, Peace Now movement, Israeli gays & lesbians and anti-Zionist publicist Uri Avineri, who are doing their best for reducing mutual Arab-Israeli prejudice…

It is true, Arab intellectuals must do more to combat Anti-Semitism, but to be fair… Ever heard of Holocaust survivor and all-around humanist Elie Wiesel to defend Palestinians at occupied territories? I’m still waiting for Nobel laureate to prove his moral superiority by criticizing his own folk. Oops, can’t hear! Maybe some Noble-prized peoples still possess parochial thinking…

> It's just idiotic to say the entire world hates America when much of the
> world (generally the more civilized and democratic parts) is working with
> America as friends and allies. But I guess you only wanna pay attention to
> those who agree with you. Anyway, most of the people who hate America with
> **all their hearts** are very bad people indeed.

Agree. But we must objectively think why some of those "bad" peoples hate us?
Reason is not treason, we are Democracy and we have a right to debate and THINK…

> I have stayed awake reading about life in Iraq, so that's true. I've
> always read about totalitarian states. Opposing that shit defines all of
> my politics.

Again, did you join US Army & Navy today, you cushion militant?! Reading is cheap.. :)

> Yes, people die in war. Are you against all war?

No, of course, as I said, I was for American military actions in Afghanistan.
WW2 was a just war for us. Vietnam War was not...

> So what's your solution? Continue with the policy of the 1990s, which
> can't succeed for the long term and has indirectly contributed to
> thousands of deaths? Or just leave Saddam alone, let him do as he pleases
> and put all his deranged plans into motion? It's easy to just say you
> disagree with everything we're doing. What would YOU have us do? That's a
> bit harder to figure out, ain't it? The first thing is, you'll actually
> have to take the matter seriously.

Civilized high-developed countries could always find diplomatic channels to pressure upon poor semi-starved Third World Country like Iraq... Oaf, if you think Iraqis are invading Cleveland tomorrow, you need professional help...

> How do you know? You can see into his heart? And America is not a
> dictatorship. Congress has given Bush his support. Do none of them care?
> There was also an election a couple weeks ago where the people, had they
> been won over by the anti-war "case" (which I'm still trying to
> find...) could have undermined Bush's policy. Instead they gave him their
> support for the war.

Countries, where both father and son were elected presidents? Where dynasty rules overwrite meritocracy? Answer: Northern Korea and USA.
Well, also Bush Jr. election was a little bit controversial, wasn't it?

> If you really think Saddam Hussein isn't building nukes and wants to ass
> f*** us all with them, YOU are naive. It's what I've long thought about
> many living in nice countries, that people have it so good they don't
> really understand truly evil peoeple and what they will do with power.

Again, what is annual GNP of Iraq versus America? Maybe, we must start being afraid of Mongolia and Turkmenistan too? They could send radioactive ninja super-laser flying camels to our shores... :)

> I'm convinced the reason we're acting is to prevent the nukes. But there
> are certainly many more reasons. The purely moral reason is because Iraqis
> and Kurds are living in misery under Saddam. If that's not the #1 reason
> in the heart of Bush, that doesn't mean it's not a reason at all, and it
> certainly doesn't mean that can't be one of the main reaosns why *I*
> support it. America has no choice but to be involved throughout the world,
> and sometimes it's good policy and sometimes it's not. I try to figure out
> what policies will lead to good results, and I give those my support. I
> guess you think it's better to just knee-jerk oppose any policy. And then
> support what? Isolationism? I can give a laundry list of horrible things
> which wouldn't have been stopped in this world, and good things which
> wouldn't have happened, had America not been involved in the world.

Oil $$$s...

> I quite agree with you about the Texas executions, which is quite
> irrelevant to policy in Iraq.

Texas executions by Bubba!? Well, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China and USA are an example of “enlightened” countries, where death penalty is legal, the rest of civilized world made it illegal by now.

> However, two things, if you insist on this weird changing-of-the-subject
> argument : Did you protest Bill Clinton for the same reasons? And, can you
> not see that there *is* a moral argument one can make in favor of capital
> punishment?

Bill Clinton? Chasing more skirts by now, while Hillary is free to live with her girlfriend?

> I mean, the people he executed (as far as we know) were murderers. I know
> plenty of good, ethical people who believe capital punishment is justice.
> I don't think you can say a supporter of the death penalty has no care for
> human life. Isn't that ridiculous demonization? As it happens, I once
> supported the death penalty, and when I did it was because my thoughts
> were focused 100% on the victims of violent crime. I thought it was a very
> moral stance. I've come to see and favor the other side of the argument,
> but it's far from self-evident that executions are evil. If someone killed
> someone I loved, I might change my mind again. And when I see those two
> Muslim-terrorist snipers, I feel less than ethusiastic about marching for
> their right to life. I guess it's all very clear-cut to you, though, and
> any politician who likes the death penalty obviously can't do anything
> moral ever?

Well, I would support the death penalty, if I would assume that EVERY PROSECUTOR IS A JESUS CHRIST who would be error-proof. Yet, I'm against death penalty, 'cause all humans, even well-intentioned ones, are making mistakes, and even if 9 of 10 of executed are indeed child murderers or rapists or cop killers, there is always a probability that that #10 executed is innocent of acme crime... Maybe this #10 unfortunate was just a felon with rap sheet at wrong place, at wrong time, while three miles from this unlucky #10, cop was indeed killed by a real McCoy... So, to avoid possibility, HOWEVER MINISCULE, of well-intentioned federals taking innocent lives, the best way to punish is a life in prison...

> Not one person has made a serious assessment of what kind of danger they
> think Saddam poses and what policy they'd back. Not one. So don't make me
> laugh, man. Cut and paste these "fantastic" points. They're all
> the same. "Bush is dumb." "You're a nazi."

You are not a nazi. I rather say, you are a putz, misinformed by US media.

> All my first posting did was congratulate the statesmanship of Bush and
> Powell for achieving, through patience and compromise, a unanimous United
> Nations Security Counsel vote in favor in weapons inspections. I know lots
> of people have their fashion-statement politics and all they are about is
> making silly one-liners that get pats on the back from those who find it
> stylish to oppose everything. But anyway, the first reply I got was that
> Morrissey would disapprove (like I care!) and I should leave the board!
> That set the tone, and some other retard carried the baton from there,
> using my screenname instead of his own, and calling me a "nazi."

> I only know of ignoring one, because he called me a nazi and used an
> anonymous screenname. I've always ignored people who post under anonymous
> names, because I think they're retarded and cowardly. Even worse when they
> make their screenname get confused with mine.

> Wasn't Mindy just giving her gut opinion? That's fine, but if that's the
> end of the matter for her, what am I supposed to say? She just
> "feels" Bush is lying about everything, and that's that, end of
> discussion.

Mindy is just a pure soul. Let’s not involve her in our cynical political games. Politics are dirty by definition, alas.

> I'm assuming we're all aware of the fact that every country is a unique
> situation, right? OK, then....

OK.

> I'm fascinated why you think this is some good point. North Korea *already
> has* nukes. And they built those nukes in defiance of all the agreements
> America worked out with them through peaceful diplomacy. North Korea is a
> huge concern. They have quite the deranged evil motherf***er in charge
> there, and he's set up an Orwellian state that is literally just like the
> novel "1984." He's also murdered and starved to death millions.
> The United States government has delcared North Korea part of the
> "Axis of Evil," meaning they are considered one of the biggest
> threats in the world today, and thus policy towards them should be based
> on that understanding. But the policy must fit the circumstances of the
> country.

> Anyhow, first of all, we all better be praying there won't be a war
> started with North Korea. Not because we wouldn't kick that f***er's ass,
> but because the first act by the North Norean regime in that war will be
> the nuclear destruction of the capital of South Korea, a country I think
> has been developing pretty well economically and democratically.

> So I look at the N. Korea situation and say, "f*** no can we let
> SADDAM HUSSEIN acquire nukes." With North Korea, we have deterred
> that madman for decades, with considerable taxpayer dollars and U.S.
> troops. The deterrence has been successful. War would be a catastrophe for
> South Korea. That's why we're doing that there. All we can do is deter and
> wait that guy out, something we can't do with Saddam given his entire
> history and agenda. So where is this "fantastic point"? You look
> at the terrifying threat of North Korea being able to nuke South Korea and
> say, "See, we gotta let Saddam Hussein, who's obsession is to take
> over the whole Arab world, get nukes too!"????

Agree, North Korea is a Maoist dictatorship, a political anachronism, and our past help to South Korea made sense, while Soviet Union existed... Yet.. Funny thing, South Korean students love to demonstrate against American bases on their territory. Maybe South Koreans want to reunite with their Northern brothers, and it is indeed a time for Yankees to go home from Korean peninsula... South Koreans were quite unhappy about ill-begotten Bush Jr. statement calling Northerners an evil axes state. They, Southerners, thought, this statement made a lot of harm in delicate process of North-South reunification or better call it prelude to inevitable reunification.

> Amazing what passes for good points in some circles.....

Amazing indeed... Like knit-tight Texas oilmen circle...

> And since we're on consistancy of positions, let me turn that to you now.
> Many of the people aganst this war are also constantly posting about
> ISrael and the Plaestinians. Well, what about a state for the Kurds?
> Unlikes Palestinian leadership, the Kurds have not walked away from peace
> negotiations to engage in terrorism. Unlike the Palestinian leadership,
> the Kurds have been making strides for demcoracy, despite being trapped in
> the most dangerous spot on the globe between people on all sides who want
> to opress them. The Kurds suffer more than the Palestinians, and there are
> more of them suffering. Why no solidarity with their desire for a
> democratic, independant state? And as to the Palestinians, who, depsite
> walking away from peace a few years ago, Bush has assured can have a state
> if they make moves for new institutions and democracy...since everything
> else has seemed to fail in that conflict, can it not be worth a shot to
> start changing the status-quo of the region in favor of dempocracy?
> BEginning with IRaq? Or, do you want Saddam to be able to keep funding
> Palestinian terrorists and come to believe that the more he can keep that
> conflict raging the safer he'll be?

Well, this is a kick below belt... The truth is, no one knows who is suffering more: acme Kurd or acme Palestinian... Not for us, affluent Americans to decide... I think both Kurds and Palestinians, as well as world Jewry and world Chinese and Papuans, deserve commonwealth and happiness... Palestinians walking from peace? This statement is not even funny, for Arafat to give up Jerusalem and give up the right of all Palestinian refugees of 1947 and their children to go back to their homes would mean a political suicide and perhaps a label of “Traitor” from Arabs worldwide. No Arab refugees back to their home and compensated for their property by Israeli Jews according to International law, no realistic chance for peace, that’s reality! Maybe Israelis would find a Palestinian equivalent of Norwegian Nazi collaborator Quisling, who would agree to be Palestinian Israeli-salaried Papa Doc, but this would solve nothing… Palestinians would still mull angrily at refugee camps…

> A successful liberation of Iraq could Saudi Arabia's oil monopoly and
> their anti-democratic royal family.

Iraq, if one remembered, is a sovereign state, so it does not needs to be liberated... Changed from within, you bet! But not by outside force! Oh, well, maybe you mistook Palestine for Iraq... Palestine is indeed, an occupied state and need to be liberated... Maybe Americans would better give a military ultimatum to Sharon: be back to your internationally recognized pre-1967 borders in a week or else? Not a bad idea, after all...

> Case by case.
That's what I do here.

> One of the things I like about the emerging foreign policy since 9/11 is
> American ideals are being asserted again. Bush is the first U.S. president
> *ever* to have said the words "Palestinian state." Doesn't that
> mean something?
> Doesn't it signal some sort of awakening? Doesn't anybody notice these
> things?
> Bush won't come out and state it overtly, but if you listen close it
> sounds to me that there's a recognition that the Cold War is over and the
> realpolitick that caused so much complexity and often misguided,
> short-sighted foreign policy is a thing of the past.

I agree, Bush recognizing Palestinian state was a positive statement... If it was done at 1947 by America, much red blood would be spared, and Jews and Arabs would live side by side happily, and maybe even inter-marry... Alas, too little, to late... Or maybe, not too late yet...

> Scoff if you want, but the point is backed up by the fact that George W.
> Bush campaigned for the Presidency condemning "nation-building"
> and promising not to engage in it. And look what he's doing now. He's
> committing America to a long-term nation-building in Iraq if we go to war
> to remove Saddam, which is a consdierable risk to his own political
> career. Since it's contrary to his entire previous philosophy and that of
> his father and all the other right wing isolationists, and because it's
> such a high-risk undertaking politically, I think he's doing it because he
> believes it's the right thing to do to start helping the Middle East out
> of their darkness. For their good and our own good.

> Yes, they are. The containment policy after the Gulf War can't work for
> the long-term, and makes us indirect contributors to the suffering of the
> Iraqi people. And, most urgently of all, Saddam cannot have nukes. And,
> yes, oil is important too. Only a fool would say they don't care who
> controls the world's oil.

Oil! Yes, damn important, I would die if I would be forced to pay 4 or 5 bucks a gallon for my oil (like Germans do) instead of $1.55... I would not be able to drive 3000 miles for Blink-182 concert at Shitville, Northern Idaho ... I'm ready to kill a million f***ing Arabs for that! Just bitter irony. Oil is not worthy of war!

> Removing Saddam, if done right, is a good thing for all. My support is
> contingent upon it being done right.

IF IT IS DONE RIGHT!!! By Iraqis themselves!

> Not hunky dory. But better. And people once said Germany could never
> democratize either.

Name-mentioning David Bowie album Honky Dory? :) Commendable!

> The policy is not to bomb "them" (the Iraqi people). The policy
> is to take down Saddam's horrific regime. Saddam is despised by the Iraqi
> people, and the Iraqi people are dying by the thousands and thousands
> right now. If a miltary action is done right, it would minimize the
> civilian casualties and be over quick. I'm of the opinion the Iraqi army
> are busy making white flags and practicing putting their tanks into
> reverse as we type. But yeah people are gonna die. There may even be a
> weapon of mass destruction lobbed into Israel as his last act to go down
> in history with. But Saddam has never stopped being at war with us. And
> he's hellbent on getting nukes. We're gonna confront him one way or
> another.

Yet, as I mentioned above, it is impossible to fight Saddam at densely populated urban enclaves without killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis...

> If all goes as planned, it will be up to the IRaqi people to pick their
> own leaders. Just as we allowed Japan and Germany when we rebuilt their
> nations. I love the way you assume we'll just install someone who will be
> just as bad as Saddam, so nothing good will come from removing him. And
> you know what? Eventually someone is gonna come after Saddam. His regime
> will implode one day. And who knows what comes in the aftermath. By
> removing him now, the international community will BE THERE to keep Iraq
> out of total anarchy and civil war. I know you think the democracies of
> the world are in on some huge conspiracy, but I think it's better for the
> world to be in Iraq when Saddam falls than to not be. And I think it's
> better for Saddam to fall before he can cause any more misery, and before
> he can hit a new level in the catastrophe he wants to bring upon the
> world.

Iraqis must pick leader themselves, not Americans doing it for them... Right, Mr. Political Science Professor Emeritus of Cleveland University? :)

> They'll be happy Saddam is gone. No one is suggesting a wave of a wand
> will make Iraq a paradise, so another silly argument on your part. The
> kind of argument that's easy to make when you're safe and sound in the USA
> and don't particularly wanna concern yourself with the difficult task of
> helping people who are trapped in hell.

Everyone would be happy if Saddam and Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak would be all gone into trashcan of history...

> Everyone calls me ignorant, but I'm the only one saying what I support.
> I'm also the only one who mentions *Saddam Hussein* much, rather than
> trying to change the subject.
So be happy to hear all answers you asked us for...

> I said they should have their own democracy, so I don't know what you're
> talking about.
Like common sense?

> Saddam Hussein has no right to have power in Iraq.
Not for America to decide...

> Yeah, it actually does work that way. Israel was the first to use weapons
> to set Saddam's nuclear program back. Then America bombed their nuclear
> facilities. Thanks to those military actions, Saddam doesn't have nukes
> aimed at us all right now. Then, backed by American military might, we got
> weapons inspectors into Iraq in the 1990s, who destroyed much of it. And
> now, again backed up by American military might, Saddam had to write his
> deranged letter to Kofi Anan and allow that Swede to lead weapons
> inspections again, and this time with no cat and mouse games allowed.
> Hopefully he'll be in material breach sooner rather than later so we can
> kill him already and turn the page for Iraq.

Kofi Annan? Is he being kept on CIA payroll?... This guy does not have a backbone, he is simply relying our American wishes for the rest of the world...

> Perfect sense.

> So what do you want us to do?

> How come you're not worried about Saddam's ego and arrogance? Bush is a
> temporary servant in a civilized democracy with checks and balances.
> Saddam is dictator for life and his ego is so huge he has people tortured
> if they *accidentally* deface one of those ridiculous portraits of him.
> His ego is so big he had an hours long film made of his life, which is
> required viewing for all schoolchildren. Imagine living somewhere where
> you send your kids to school, not to learn anything, but to have their
> heads filled with a madman's propaganda film. And imagine those kids being
> told, 'If you hear your dad saying anything bad about Saddam, report it to
> us." And then the lovely guards come to the house and slice off dad's
> tongue. You're right that this war is about someone's ego, and that ego is
> Saddam's. He wants to go down in history with his madman plans, but I
> think the sane people of the world should be the one's who decide how this
> final chapter of that disgusting book goes.

Well, evil Saddam is an Iraqi problem...
Saddam MUST GO, but by Iraqi people hands, we have to help anti-Saddam opposition organize, we may give them money, but Saddam must not be chased away by the price of American GIs and Iraqi civilians…

Let's look much closer to home, to our great humanist, America-middle-class loving noble Bush Jr. administration...
Recession is raging, Bin Laden is still on the loose, meanwhile people’s constitutional liberties are being taken away, step by step as an excuse of Bin Laden (pot smokers, recreational drugs users, beware, fed’s Big Brother is after you now big way!), peoples are losing their jobs, market is down, corporate crooks are reluctantly punished, yet, under thin excuse of "war against terrorism". Also, Bush and Cheney themselves avoided a just trial for their active tolerance and perhaps even participation in Enron and worldcom corporate crimes by accepting so-called campaign contribution gifts, which were just a barely disguised bribes from corporate fat cats, while, in return for favors, turning a blind eye for those corporate fat cats dirty deeds in US economy... Could I dare to mention California Enron-produced 2000 Energy Crisis? Silicon Valley Internet scum investments going belly up? Unemployed? Underemployed? Mostly middle class Americans, getting short end of the Global Economy stick? Oh, how easy it is to deflect attention of an American commoner from injustice in home to evil boogeyman Saddam Hussein, who will come to scare you at night at your Republican militant dreams of a Law School armchair warrior, Saddam would ally with Big Bad Wolf against noble Harry Potter and his pro-American witches from Hog-wart School of Witchcraft... :) Oh, maybe I will turn my TV on and see what next fairytale Bush administration prepared for me for tonight? :)
 
N

Notastitchtowear

Guest
Re: "Clap, clap clap"

> OK, Mr. Know It All, let's go...

> I hate Saddam Hussein too. The question is, where does USA have to stop?
> By your logic, after defeating Iraqi regime, USA must fight all evil
> anti-democratic regimes on the face of the Earth like... Northern Korea,
> Cuba, one could add Lebanon, Syria, Iran... I doubt that destiny of our
> country is to be a world policeman. When America defended herself by
> destroying evil Taliban, it was a just defense... By supporting and
> covering for Bin Laden, who attacked Pentagon and WTC, Afghani Taliban
> made itself a legitimate USA self-defense target... Yet, Bush Jr. didn't
> give us a single credible proof that Saddam Hussein/Iraq is at any rate, a
> threat to the USA or somehow connected to September 11 events...
> Many peoples, including myself, are suspecting that current Republican
> administration is using a potential little victorious war to deflect
> American public attention from dismal economical situation at home... This
> is an old trick from Kissengerian Political Book of Know How... Yet, this
> trick could bring a disaster for the Middle East stability for all
> players, including even Israelis and Iranians, who are Saddam bitter
> enemies... First of all, destroying Iraqis, would bring a bloody chaos to
> Iraq, with Kurds, Sunni Muslims (minority in Iraq) and Iranian-supported
> Shiite Muslims all engaging into civil wars against each other...
> Secondly, removing Saddam means strengthening Islamic Republic of Iran,
> the bitter enemy of America, Rasfijani or not... Thirdly, what if hundreds
> of thousands Iraqi civilians would end dead....??? During Gulf War of
> 1991, the military action was mostly at desert, and Americans killed
> mostly Iraqi military-men. Yet, in case of Iraq, military action would be
> conducted at the midst of narrow dark Middle Eastern casbahs of Iraq inner
> cities, which means either hand-to-hand face-to-face fighting of Iraqis
> and American GI OR it would mean an American hi-tech planes erasing those
> casbahs from the face of the Earth with hundreds of thousands poor
> inner-city Iraqis women, civilian man and children dying... For what? For
> the opportunity to install an pro-American Iraqi Karzai-like puppet, who
> would satisfy an appetite for the cheap Iraqi oil of certain Texas oilman
> like Bubba and his business buddies Ramsfield and Cheney... But by what
> price? Perhaps, anti-American massive hate of the Arab street, who would,
> NATURALLY, to mourn their dead innocents... By the price of thousands of
> American inner city mostly Black and Hispanic GIs lives, sent to die to
> provide more oil profits and some real or imaginary American strategy
> advantage in our business competition for cheap oil with Russians and
> Europeans...

> Sorry, yes, Saddam is evil, yet he is not Adolf Hitler or even a
> Mussolini... He is a leader of miserable backward Third World country,
> whose budget may equal a budget of New Jersey or Kentucky... (I must to my
> homework here!) As evil he is, he was/is never a threat to America... Who
> is a threat to America?
> Perhaps Saudi Arabia, who is supporting REAL AMERICAN enemies such as Bin
> Laden and Al Quaeda... Also, Israel is not helping America prestige at the
> Middle East, by terrorizing Palestinians... Instead of hitting Saddam, I
> would recommend the opposite - to life Iraq economic blockade and stop
> Iraq civilians suffering... Yet, simultaneously America has all right in
> the World to encourage Iraqi democratic or progressive leaders in exile to
> fight Saddam within, and America is entitled to but diplomatic pressure on
> Saddam. Yet, you Oaf must be an under-informed naive young man, who thinks
> that Bush Jr. really gives a shit about Kurds or Saddam political
> prisoners... The name of the game is BIG OIL, the question on mind of Dick
> and George :) (Cheney and Bush) are OF COURSE, NOT NON-EXISTANT IRAQI
> THREAT to American security, but OIL PROFITS... Bush and Cheney dislike
> Saddam cheap oil going to Russia and France, who are economically
> cooperating with Saddam, they want this oil for themselves, while I as an
> military-service-age American would say: (sorry for my French): "f***
> the oil, I don't mind to pay twice as much for my gas, it is not worthy of
> dying for"... I want to fight reactionary Islamic terrorists of
> course, but I'm entitled to ask question: "If Bush is serious in
> fighting Al Quaeda, why not to stop supporting evil Saudi monarchy? Why
> not to cater American foreign policy more pro-Arab? Why not to give 5
> million Jewish Israelis an American green card and thus solve
> Israeli-Palestinian conflict for all (just thinking out of the box.. J
> )?" There are many rational solutions, yet Bush is thinking
> ultimately for his and his clan profits, not for simple folks' America
> ultimate well-being...

> But state of Israel is evil indeed in her roots! Israelis is THE ONLY
> COUNTRY IN THE WORLD who is occupying the territories of another sovereign
> state, the future Palestinian state (West Bank and Gaza Sector plus
> Eastern Jerusalem) against all international laws. Bush Jr. already
> promised the world that Palestinian state would exist in 2 years... Even
> Ariel Sharon made a statement that Palestinian state is a fail accompli,
> which means that no matter how mainstream Zionist public opinion within
> Israel is against Palestinian state, it is a fact on the ground and Israel
> is better learn, likes she/it or not, to live peacefully with their Arab
> neighbors, or become an International pariah again... Moreover, by
> continuing their brutal occupation of Arab lands, Israelis are risking
> that world opinion would re-enact famous UN resolution Zionism Is Racism,
> which was adopted at 1975 by the majority of Third world countries plus
> former socialist block, and was REVOKED ON CONDITION OF ISRAEL RECOGNIZING
> NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS OF PALESTINIANS for their independent state.
> Moreover, Israelis engaged now in dirty politics of enticing Russian
> immigrants to come live in Israel... The fact is (and Russian media
> recognizes it), that more then 60% of those 1 million plus immigrants are
> ethnic Russians (while Israel falsely states that they ALL are ethnic
> Jews) who are coming to Israel for the purpose of escaping Russian hard
> economic conditions and seeking material well-being... Nothing bad about
> those aspirations to live better by itself, except the fact that those
> Russian immigrants are taking over Arab lands, which do belong to Arabs
> indeed... In modern day Israel, Arabs are prohibited from buying real
> estate within pre-1967 Israel, and restricted from developing on the
> occupied territories...

> Now think about it, WHAT IF....

> Oaf, just imagine, THAT you are not an American Republican and Zionist you
> are, but an Palestinian, born and raised at Nablus, West Bank, for
> example... Your ancestors lived in Yaffa (Arab city near modern day Tel
> Aviv) for thousands of years, from generation to generation. It is your
> land, your ancestors worked on soil of Palestine, they grew figs and
> olives, they gave you the love for your land as a heritage. You are not a
> Jew hater, in opposite, you are an Arab Western-educated intellectual...
> Now, your granddad was pushed out of his Yaffa home at 1947 by the
> Stalin-armed and America-supported Zionist Jews (Ben Gurion and company),
> the year Zionist entity (for your granddad) OR state of Israel (for
> Israeli Jews) came into being. Your granddad was not serving at Nazi Army,
> yet he was sacrificed by Powers To Be at 1947 to provide new living space,
> new state for the EUROPEAN(!!!) Jews, victims of Germany-created and
> accomplished European Holocaust with 6 million Jews dead... Again, your
> granddad was naturally pissed at Jews, yet what a simple man can do? He
> just moved on. He had to make a living at Hebron, city at Jordan and feed
> his family... where peoples treated him unfairly, 'cause he was a
> competitor for their livelihood at a poor Arab country with limited
> resources.. 1967 year came... By that time, your granddad stopped dreaming
> about pushing Zionists out of his home at Yaffa, being a realist he
> succumbed to his fate, that he perhaps would never have a chance to visit
> his home and his Fatherland any more... But, the funny thing, Israelis now
> visited your granddad and your dad... After 1967 war, which Israelis won
> 1967 war, helped by superior French and American weaponry. They occupied
> Hebron (West Bank) against all international laws and started to settle
> Jewish religious fanatics (settlers) in the midst of Arabs... Settlers had
> Israeli financial help, water (hot commodity at Palestine), chosen
> land.... Arabs at West Bank were formally a Jordanian citizens, and they
> had Islamic schools and internal infrastructure, supported by
> Jordanians... Yet, actually they were living under foreign occupation,
> their lands taken away, their dignity put down by armed Israeli
> military-men, their national pride taken away, their Muslim customs
> disrespected etc... Now, IMAGINE, as if you were born at occupied Hebron,
> the grandson of Yaffa-born Palestinian granddad. Say, you are a
> Palestinian doctor, who works in Israel. You have to live under foreign
> occupation, your children could be shot either by Israeli tank, or by
> armed Jewish settler. You have to commute every day to Israel for your
> hospital-workplace 2 hours one way, 2 hours another, even if in America
> your 15-miles commute would take you only 15 minutes... Cause Israeli
> Armed Patrols are deliberately making you to stay in line 1.5 hour at
> Israeli borders. You see young well-fed Israelis, who are immigrants from
> Ethiopia or Russia and came to Israel a year ago, and yet those
> Addis-Ababa-born or Kiev-born Jewish youngsters have a right to make you
> wait in line for 1.5 hours, a native born Palestinian, to get to... your
> own home, your own workplace at Yaffa hospital for Arabs... Is it fair?
> Would you be pissed, dissatisfied, maybe radicalized by HAMAS? You bet you
> would… I would… Barney would too… My case against Zionism makes some
> sense, does not it...??? Only secular democratic non-Zionist Palestinian
> state with both Jews and Arabs equally enjoying fruits of citizenship, and
> Muslim half-moon and Jewish Star of David both co-existing at Acme future
> ideal state national flag, would provide the authentic solution of
> Israeli-Palestinian dispute...

> Also, supporting Israel so unconditionally and blindly is also a bad deal
> to the USA, because supporting 5 million Zionists (many of whose would be
> too glad to emigrate to the USA or Canada or even Germany only if
> slightest opportunity occurs) against billion-strength of a Muslim world
> is simply a bad politics, against REAL NATIVE AMERICAN INTEREST... This
> irrational politics is influenced by so-called Zionist lobby at Washington
> (Jewish pro-Israeli business money at politics plus right-wing Christian
> fundamentalist pro-Israel money, all kinds of AIPACs etc...) Woe to
> independently thinking US senator who would dare to offend their Jewish or
> Christian Baptist constituency with slight criticism of modern day Israeli
> policy! He/she would be financially punished by American Powers To Be! One
> of the few peoples who courageously dares to be critical about Israel,
> however meekly, is Southern California Republican Congressman Darrel Issa
> (Vista/San Clemente) and Black leaders such as LA representative Maxine
> Waters and Black preacher and former Presidential candidate Jesse
> Jackson...

> Our American tragedy that about 95% of Americans are so isolationist, they
> don't give a shit about anything "abroad" such as
> Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 4% of Americans (upper crust) understand it
> all and deliberately misleading the rest, and only 1% of peoples (mostly
> non-influential academics, some of them even Jewish like Mr. Noam Chomski
> and Mr. Finkelstein) both understand and ready to fight for their
> pro-Palestinian beliefs, in spite of the fear to be labeled as traitors or
> pro-Arab or Islamists or Anti-Semites (btw, Palestinians are Semites too,
> like Jews!) or whatever... But, I would better stop here… I’m 100% against
> militant Islam , I’m for secular Arab world… I’m for strong well-defended
> America… I’m for executing Bin Laden on electric chair… I’m also for the
> just solution of Israeli-Palestinian dispute, where all Arab refugees of
> Naqba (1947) would be able to return to their homes, and both peoples
> would be able to coexist AS EQUALS, and Zionism would go (together with
> Soviet-style “communism”) to the ashbins of world history…

> I guess American brutal policy of economic boycott of the Iraq IS A REAL
> INSULT TO MILLIONS OF IRAQIES. Saddam is eating well and having his share
> of jewelry and luxurious custom build sport cars and yachts, the simple
> folks of Iraq are the ones who are really suffering from this stupid
> arrogant policy of blockade & sanctions... Many Iraqi babies, for
> example, are dying from malnutrition...

> The truth is, if, God forbid, Arabs would nuke Jerusalem and Israelis –
> Cairo in mutual madness, it would be a great tragedy, yet it would be at
> least partially Zionist and American fault. Secular, democratic
> Jewish-Arab equality state on the place of modern day Israel and Palestine
> is the best guarantee against future possible bloody f***ing nuclear
> conflicts with millions of both Jews and Arabs dead. I apologize if I
> offended some decent folks with this following statement, but what Israel
> is doing to Palestinians now is Nazi-like actions, just on lesser scale,
> and therefore Palestinians counter-actions could be humanly understood. I
> reject Palestinian terrorism of course, but as a human being, I understand
> what makes peoples to blow themselves (and Israeli civilians) apart, what
> makes Palestinian terrorists - shaheeds (martyrs on Arabic) tick...
> Terrorism is wrong, and it brought Palestinians a political disaster, I'm
> just telling that Palestinian terrorists are not irrational crazy nutty
> idiots. They are peoples to whom great historic injustice was done by
> British and American Imperialism at 1947 (Naqba, the day of creation of
> controversial Israeli state is a Catastrophe on Arabic), and then second
> great historic injustice was done (1967, Israeli occupation of Syrian
> Golan Heights, Shaba Farm, West Bank and Gaza, Sinai and Eastern
> Jerusalem). So far, Israelis gave back only Sinai Peninsula, and, after
> Oslo “Peace Process” dismal failure, some Palestinians chose a deadly
> wrong, emotional way to respond to those historic injustices after
> realizing that it is impossible to defeat FOR NOW American-supported
> Israeli military.

> Then VOLUNTEER YOUR OWN ASS FOR THE AMERICAN ARMY, YOU ARMCHAIR STALLONE!
> Don't make poor peoples with last names like Gonzales or Jackson or Lee to
> make oil cheaper to your Clevelend lily-white Zionist lawyer ass!

> Saddam nukes? Proofs???!!! Give me ironclad facts, maybe you will convince
> me...

> Yes, as human being I care.

> Well, I love America. I hope no one would hate us. But if I would be an
> Iraqi woman with her child dead from malnutrition as a result of an
> American-led anti-Saddam economic sanctions, I would not necessarily
> harbor a warm, pro-American feelings in my gut...

> Kurds are no angels either, for example secular and pro-Western Turkey
> fights for its territorial integrity with Kurdish bandit Islamists on its
> South... Anyway, I don't believe Bush cares about Kurds, it is all about
> BIG & CHEAP OIL...

> Well, I'm against Arab Anti-Semitism, of course... Yet, objectively,
> Zionist crimes do not help to reduce current Arab Anti-Semitism... Of
> course, Palestinian terror against Israeli civilians does not help to
> reduce Anti-Arab prejudice of Israelis either… Sigh… Arabs are watching Al
> Jazeera: Israeli soldiers herding Palestinian civilians and an emotional
> response must be expected. Jews are watching Israeli TV and innocent’s
> corpses blown by HAMAS at café or disco… Result: even more mutual hate is
> generated… All of this makes extremists on both sides happy, indeed… Jews
> and Arabs worldwide must ask themselves: what are WE doing ON PERSONAL
> DAILY LEVEL to reduce anti-Semitism and Arab hatred? The best a Jewish or
> Arab man or woman on the street of Israel or Cleveland could do to combat
> an evil of Arab Anti-Semitism and Israeli Zionism is to support
> Palestinian state, reject Zionism as an failed and obsolete ideology and
> also keep fighting more traditional right-wing Christian and Islamic
> Anti-Semitism of ignorance... Any form of Anti-Semitism is “bad”, the same
> is about racist anti-Arab statements of current Israeli leaders like Ariel
> Sharon and Russian-born Jewish extremist settler Avigdor Lieberman. Maybe
> the only way to combat ignorance is for simple Jewish and Arab folks to
> have as much as possible social and economic contacts on daily basis.

> Of course, Egypt deserves shame for it’s stupid and reactionary TV show.
> Objectively, there are some groups of Jewish and Arab peoples in Israel,
> like Israeli Communists, Peace Now movement, Israeli gays & lesbians
> and anti-Zionist publicist Uri Avineri, who are doing their best for
> reducing mutual Arab-Israeli prejudice…

> It is true, Arab intellectuals must do more to combat Anti-Semitism, but
> to be fair… Ever heard of Holocaust survivor and all-around humanist Elie
> Wiesel to defend Palestinians at occupied territories? I’m still waiting
> for Nobel laureate to prove his moral superiority by criticizing his own
> folk. Oops, can’t hear! Maybe some Noble-prized peoples still possess
> parochial thinking…

> Agree. But we must objectively think why some of those "bad"
> peoples hate us?
> Reason is not treason, we are Democracy and we have a right to debate and
> THINK…

> Again, did you join US Army & Navy today, you cushion militant?!
> Reading is cheap.. :)

> No, of course, as I said, I was for American military actions in
> Afghanistan.
> WW2 was a just war for us. Vietnam War was not...

> Civilized high-developed countries could always find diplomatic channels
> to pressure upon poor semi-starved Third World Country like Iraq... Oaf,
> if you think Iraqis are invading Cleveland tomorrow, you need professional
> help...

> Countries, where both father and son were elected presidents? Where
> dynasty rules overwrite meritocracy? Answer: Northern Korea and USA.
> Well, also Bush Jr. election was a little bit controversial, wasn't it?

> Again, what is annual GNP of Iraq versus America? Maybe, we must start
> being afraid of Mongolia and Turkmenistan too? They could send radioactive
> ninja super-laser flying camels to our shores... :)

> Oil $$$s...

> Texas executions by Bubba!? Well, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China and USA are an
> example of “enlightened” countries, where death penalty is legal, the rest
> of civilized world made it illegal by now.

> Bill Clinton? Chasing more skirts by now, while Hillary is free to live
> with her girlfriend?

> Well, I would support the death penalty, if I would assume that EVERY
> PROSECUTOR IS A JESUS CHRIST who would be error-proof. Yet, I'm against
> death penalty, 'cause all humans, even well-intentioned ones, are making
> mistakes, and even if 9 of 10 of executed are indeed child murderers or
> rapists or cop killers, there is always a probability that that #10
> executed is innocent of acme crime... Maybe this #10 unfortunate was just
> a felon with rap sheet at wrong place, at wrong time, while three miles
> from this unlucky #10, cop was indeed killed by a real McCoy... So, to
> avoid possibility, HOWEVER MINISCULE, of well-intentioned federals taking
> innocent lives, the best way to punish is a life in prison...

> You are not a nazi. I rather say, you are a putz, misinformed by US media.

> Mindy is just a pure soul. Let’s not involve her in our cynical political
> games. Politics are dirty by definition, alas.

> OK.

> Agree, North Korea is a Maoist dictatorship, a political anachronism, and
> our past help to South Korea made sense, while Soviet Union existed...
> Yet.. Funny thing, South Korean students love to demonstrate against
> American bases on their territory. Maybe South Koreans want to reunite
> with their Northern brothers, and it is indeed a time for Yankees to go
> home from Korean peninsula... South Koreans were quite unhappy about
> ill-begotten Bush Jr. statement calling Northerners an evil axes state.
> They, Southerners, thought, this statement made a lot of harm in delicate
> process of North-South reunification or better call it prelude to
> inevitable reunification.

> Amazing indeed... Like knit-tight Texas oilmen circle...

> Well, this is a kick below belt... The truth is, no one knows who is
> suffering more: acme Kurd or acme Palestinian... Not for us, affluent
> Americans to decide... I think both Kurds and Palestinians, as well as
> world Jewry and world Chinese and Papuans, deserve commonwealth and
> happiness... Palestinians walking from peace? This statement is not even
> funny, for Arafat to give up Jerusalem and give up the right of all
> Palestinian refugees of 1947 and their children to go back to their homes
> would mean a political suicide and perhaps a label of “Traitor” from Arabs
> worldwide. No Arab refugees back to their home and compensated for their
> property by Israeli Jews according to International law, no realistic
> chance for peace, that’s reality! Maybe Israelis would find a Palestinian
> equivalent of Norwegian Nazi collaborator Quisling, who would agree to be
> Palestinian Israeli-salaried Papa Doc, but this would solve nothing…
> Palestinians would still mull angrily at refugee camps…

> Iraq, if one remembered, is a sovereign state, so it does not needs to be
> liberated... Changed from within, you bet! But not by outside force! Oh,
> well, maybe you mistook Palestine for Iraq... Palestine is indeed, an
> occupied state and need to be liberated... Maybe Americans would better
> give a military ultimatum to Sharon: be back to your internationally
> recognized pre-1967 borders in a week or else? Not a bad idea, after
> all...
> That's what I do here.

> I agree, Bush recognizing Palestinian state was a positive statement... If
> it was done at 1947 by America, much red blood would be spared, and Jews
> and Arabs would live side by side happily, and maybe even inter-marry...
> Alas, too little, to late... Or maybe, not too late yet...

> Oil! Yes, damn important, I would die if I would be forced to pay 4 or 5
> bucks a gallon for my oil (like Germans do) instead of $1.55... I would
> not be able to drive 3000 miles for Blink-182 concert at Shitville,
> Northern Idaho ... I'm ready to kill a million f***ing Arabs for that!
> Just bitter irony. Oil is not worthy of war!

> IF IT IS DONE RIGHT!!! By Iraqis themselves!

> Name-mentioning David Bowie album Honky Dory? :) Commendable!

> Yet, as I mentioned above, it is impossible to fight Saddam at densely
> populated urban enclaves without killing hundreds of thousands of
> Iraqis...

> Iraqis must pick leader themselves, not Americans doing it for them...
> Right, Mr. Political Science Professor Emeritus of Cleveland University?
> :)

> Everyone would be happy if Saddam and Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak would be
> all gone into trashcan of history...
> So be happy to hear all answers you asked us for...
> Like common sense?
> Not for America to decide...

> Kofi Annan? Is he being kept on CIA payroll?... This guy does not have a
> backbone, he is simply relying our American wishes for the rest of the
> world...

> Well, evil Saddam is an Iraqi problem...
> Saddam MUST GO, but by Iraqi people hands, we have to help anti-Saddam
> opposition organize, we may give them money, but Saddam must not be chased
> away by the price of American GIs and Iraqi civilians…

> Let's look much closer to home, to our great humanist,
> America-middle-class loving noble Bush Jr. administration...
> Recession is raging, Bin Laden is still on the loose, meanwhile people’s
> constitutional liberties are being taken away, step by step as an excuse
> of Bin Laden (pot smokers, recreational drugs users, beware, fed’s Big
> Brother is after you now big way!), peoples are losing their jobs, market
> is down, corporate crooks are reluctantly punished, yet, under thin excuse
> of "war against terrorism". Also, Bush and Cheney themselves
> avoided a just trial for their active tolerance and perhaps even
> participation in Enron and worldcom corporate crimes by accepting
> so-called campaign contribution gifts, which were just a barely disguised
> bribes from corporate fat cats, while, in return for favors, turning a
> blind eye for those corporate fat cats dirty deeds in US economy... Could
> I dare to mention California Enron-produced 2000 Energy Crisis? Silicon
> Valley Internet scum investments going belly up? Unemployed?
> Underemployed? Mostly middle class Americans, getting short end of the
> Global Economy stick? Oh, how easy it is to deflect attention of an
> American commoner from injustice in home to evil boogeyman Saddam Hussein,
> who will come to scare you at night at your Republican militant dreams of
> a Law School armchair warrior, Saddam would ally with Big Bad Wolf against
> noble Harry Potter and his pro-American witches from Hog-wart School of
> Witchcraft... :) Oh, maybe I will turn my TV on and see what next
> fairytale Bush administration prepared for me for tonight? :)

Thank you! That was truly amazing and eye opening information, beautiful. I couldn't come anywhere near to answering Oaf's arguement as well as you have so I'll just say, I agree 1000% and for me the debate stops here.
 
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