London - Wembley (Mar. 14, 2020) post-show fight thread

If you are interested in families that have a history of marrying cousins who should look at the Royal Family tree.

Large numbers of these families settled in the UK after fighting for the UK against enemies such as Germany.

The percentage isn't really rising to any large degree.

How do you feel scientifically those numbers are increasing because they are inbreeding? How does that increase the numbers any more than if they married non cousins? I know many Muslims and I don't know any that married their cousins but it isn't illegal and not sure how your point is relevant to the discussion. Take a look at the Queen's family and how they interconnect.

Again, so you still havent answered the question. At which point would you say everyone in the UK was indigenous? Most of our culture, food wise, music wise, design, fashion have roots not from this country. What is UK identity? No one has been able to ever answer that on your side of the argument.

That percentage is rising. It's also affecting our cultural life. My local pub has just closed down and has been bought by an Islamic centre, in an area where the numbers of Muslims is relatively small. You've bought into the lie that we have no culture, which is odd, as you're a Morrissey fan. Did you learn nothing?
 
I only have one ancestor that came here from Germany via Holland. He was a baker in Amsterdam. I don't know why he came here....you'd have to ask him.

I suspect economic reasons as many Germans and Italians did. Many people had issues with this at the time too because they saw Germany and Italy as enemies after the wars.

So how about the Greeks and Cypriots that came in their droves in the 1960s.
All the Latin Americans that arrived in the 1970s escaping civil war.
Are they ok or do you think they are a problem too?

Who are the indigenous white people you talk about? What is white indigenous english culture? Who do you not class as welcome here?
 
That percentage is rising. It's also affecting our cultural life. My local pub has just closed down and has been bought by an Islamic centre, in an area where the numbers of Muslims is relatively small. You've bought into the lie that we have no culture, which is odd, as you're a Morrissey fan. Did you learn nothing?

I never said we don't have a culture but I dispute that it is indigenous and white.

I know what Morrissey has said and you have repeated that our cultural life is affected by quoting a pub shutting down. Pubs have shut down all over the country for years because the are for the most part being undercut by supermarket prices and large discount pubs like wetherspoons. It has nothing to do with any replacement theory.

What do you feel is the indigenous white english culture?
 
I never said we don't have a culture but I dispute that it is indigenous and white.

I know what Morrissey has said and you have repeated that our cultural life is affected by quoting a pub shutting down. Pubs have shut down all over the country for years because the are for the most part being undercut by supermarket prices and large discount pubs like wetherspoons. It has nothing to do with any replacement theory.

What do you feel is the indigenous white english culture?

My culture is white but i'm not in my 20's living in an urban environment. Those kids don't know our culture....they think it's all Stormzy and reality tv. Culture is a very personal thing. For me, I gravitated to the Smiths because i loved much of the same things that Moz did....the sixties' kitchen sink movies, music of the 50's and 60's, the aspects of working class life that i could see in my own family and roots.
 
He picks too many mid-tempo numbers and ballads, that's the problem. Obviously doesn't or can't do a physically energized performance anymore, so he shies away from all his up-tempo numbers. Which does the set list no favours.
What's wrong with mid tempo songs & ballads? He has an extensive back catalogue from The Smiths to current day which includes these type of songs & they do have a place in the live setting and most artists include such songs in their sets. I enjoy the variety of songs he chooses but also would love one or two more big hitters in there, still delighted to have seen him in concert twice this week and hope it's not too long before he sings in the UK again.
 
My culture is white but i'm not in my 20's living in an urban environment. Those kids don't know our culture....they think it's all Stormzy and reality tv. Culture is a very personal thing. For me, I gravitated to the Smiths because i loved much of the same things that Moz did....the sixties' kitchen sink movies, music of the 50's and 60's, the aspects of working class life that i could see in my own family and roots.

So why is Stomzy not part of today's youth culture? I get you don't like him and many don't but he is part of todays culture and is hugely popular amongst the youth including white youth.

My grandad loved those movies too and the music of the 50s and 60s but can't say I ever did. But how do you think anyone is stopping anyone from liking them now? They are still there and still on the radio and tv. Nothing has changed on that front as far as I see.

Working class life was never a film. For the most part working class life of the 50s was very tough and thank god it has changed.

Customs and ways of life change naturally. Always have and always will. We don't sit around a piano singing Vera Lynn songs.

Technology and music changes but that would be the case regardless.

It is very narrow to suggest all of the UK's culture has changed because of 4% of the population being Muslim. It is a nonsense.

My grandad worked down the pit and also had a local pub where the entertainment was a sing a long by the piano. That hasn't been the case for a long time.

Closures of pubs, libraries, community centre, old victorian baths, corner shops, post offices, local bank branches etc etc are all because of economic reasons and today's world moving more towards high capital multi national structures controlled by massive companies who for the most part control everything and only interested in high shareholder profit. They aren't closing because of the 4% Muslim population. They are closing because large companies have made it not economically viable to exist in competition to what they provide and this will continue.

Traditionally Muslim immigrants since the 1900s have established local community based businesses that were all a major part of UK culture for decades. These are all being cut away by internationals.
 
I never said we don't have a culture but I dispute that it is indigenous and white.

I know what Morrissey has said and you have repeated that our cultural life is affected by quoting a pub shutting down. Pubs have shut down all over the country for years because the are for the most part being undercut by supermarket prices and large discount pubs like wetherspoons. It has nothing to do with any replacement theory.

Funny that he mentions ‘Steptoe & Son’, really. As a child in the 1970’s, my family watch that show and loved it. I’m the youngest son of Windrush parents. We also enjoyed the two big-screen adaptations as well. Hofmann clearly imagines himself to the the judge of what passes for British, even though he admits to being of immigrant origin himself.

What do you feel is the indigenous white english culture?

The present monarch on the throne has black ancestral roots herself, being that her great-great-great-grandmother was of Afro-German-Portuguese extraction. She introduced Xmas trees to the UK, and had input as regards Kew Gardens, amongst things. Prince William’s daughter is named after her - Charlotte.
Hofmann fears what he doesn’t know. He wants non-White Brits stripped of their rights. Don’t believe me? Check R3-D3’s comment on the Tijinder thread from a couple of weeks ago. He liked it. Do I lie, @Stephen Hofmann?
 
So why is Stomzy not part of today's youth culture? I get you don't like him and many don't but he is part of todays culture and is hugely popular amongst the youth including white youth.

My grandad loved those movies too and the music of the 50s and 60s but can't say I ever did. But how do you think anyone is stopping anyone from liking them now? They are still there and still on the radio and tv. Nothing has changed on that front as far as I see.

Working class life was never a film. For the most part working class life of the 50s was very tough and thank god it has changed.

Customs and ways of life change naturally. Always have and always will. We don't sit around a piano singing Vera Lynn songs.

Technology and music changes but that would be the case regardless.

It is very narrow to suggest all of the UK's culture has changed because of 4% of the population being Muslim. It is a nonsense.

My grandad worked down the pit and also had a local pub where the entertainment was a sing a long by the piano. That hasn't been the case for a long time.

Closures of pubs, libraries, community centre, old victorian baths, corner shops, post offices, local bank branches etc etc are all because of economic reasons and today's world moving more towards high capital multi national structures controlled by massive companies who for the most part control everything and only interested in high shareholder profit. They aren't closing because of the 4% Muslim population. They are closing because large companies have made it not economically viable to exist in competition to what they provide and this will continue.

Traditionally Muslim immigrants since the 1900s have established local community based businesses that were all a major part of UK culture for decades. These are all being cut away by internationals.


The likes of grime are part of white youth culture but they aren't their culture. It's like reggae. You can like it but it's not your culture.

I'm not sure you can say kebab shops are a particularly important part of uk culture.
 
So why is Stomzy not part of today's youth culture? I get you don't like him and many don't but he is part of todays culture and is hugely popular amongst the youth including white youth.

My grandad loved those movies too and the music of the 50s and 60s but can't say I ever did. But how do you think anyone is stopping anyone from liking them now? They are still there and still on the radio and tv. Nothing has changed on that front as far as I see.

Working class life was never a film. For the most part working class life of the 50s was very tough and thank god it has changed.

Customs and ways of life change naturally. Always have and always will. We don't sit around a piano singing Vera Lynn songs.

Technology and music changes but that would be the case regardless.

It is very narrow to suggest all of the UK's culture has changed because of 4% of the population being Muslim. It is a nonsense.

My grandad worked down the pit and also had a local pub where the entertainment was a sing a long by the piano. That hasn't been the case for a long time.

Closures of pubs, libraries, community centre, old victorian baths, corner shops, post offices, local bank branches etc etc are all because of economic reasons and today's world moving more towards high capital multi national structures controlled by massive companies who for the most part control everything and only interested in high shareholder profit. They aren't closing because of the 4% Muslim population. They are closing because large companies have made it not economically viable to exist in competition to what they provide and this will continue.

Traditionally Muslim immigrants since the 1900s have established local community based businesses that were all a major part of UK culture for decades. These are all being cut away by internationals.

That stuff isn't there for the kids to know and discover anymore. Terrestrial tv doesn't show old movies. The only place you'll hear music from the past is on oldies radio stations. It's lost. My parents didn't have a particularly tough 50's. They had a grand time.
 
The likes of grime are part of white youth culture but they aren't their culture. It's like reggae. You can like it but it's not your culture.

I'm not sure you can say kebab shops are a particularly important part of uk culture.

You keep saying what you think isn't part of white culture but you aren't answering what the question was which is

What is white indigenous culture?

I disagree with you when you say reggae or grime isn't part of UK culture. It is made in the UK and is followed by huge numbers of people so why isn't it part of UK culture? Who says what is a country's culture and what isn't?

On your logic the following are also not part of UK culture:

Ice Cream
House Music
Tea
Curry
Coffee
Potatoes

Please we are all waiting with baited breath. What do you think is white indigenous culture aside from 50s films and music?
 
That stuff isn't there for the kids to know and discover anymore. Terrestrial tv doesn't show old movies. The only place you'll hear music from the past is on oldies radio stations. It's lost. My parents didn't have a particularly tough 50's. They had a grand time.

I see old black and white movies all the time on TV. Are you saying UK culture is only about culture from the 50s. I assume you only mean films and music made in the UK?

Anything current?
 
That stuff isn't there for the kids to know and discover anymore. Terrestrial tv doesn't show old movies. The only place you'll hear music from the past is on oldies radio stations. It's lost. My parents didn't have a particularly tough 50's. They had a grand time.

I think if I sat down with my teenage nephew and suggested we watch a movie from the 50s I think he would run a mile. It would be a bit sad to imply that was the sum of UK culture.
 
I think if I sat down with my teenage nephew and suggested we watch a movie from the 50s I think he would run a mile. It would be a bit sad to imply that was the sum of UK culture.

I'm a film lover. Always have been, got it through my mum's love of films from the past. When i was a teenager in the 80's, I loved watching old movies right back to the 30's ... but that's just me.
 
You keep saying what you think isn't part of white culture but you aren't answering what the question was which is

What is white indigenous culture?

I disagree with you when you say reggae or grime isn't part of UK culture. It is made in the UK and is followed by huge numbers of people so why isn't it part of UK culture? Who says what is a country's culture and what isn't?

On your logic the following are also not part of UK culture:

Ice Cream
House Music
Tea
Curry
Coffee
Potatoes

Please we are all waiting with baited breath. What do you think is white indigenous culture aside from 50s films and music?

Well, football for one. We did invent that.
 
The setlist debates seem to come up in every thread for every show. Most performing artists who are still producing new material naturally play mainly songs from their most recent albums. Morrissey is no different and his setlists have always been dominated by songs from recent albums. 9 out of 16 songs on Beethoven was Deaf (recorded from London and Paris shows two days apart in 1992) are from Your Arsenal and there are zero Smiths songs. This tour was even advertised as being in promotion of I Am Not a Dog on a Chain. There's no deep, hidden, loyalty-testing statement here. He's just playing mainly his most recent songs, with some well-chosen picks from the back catalogue.

Whether you like the more recent songs or not is a different question and can be debated, but the choice of mainly recent songs shouldn't be a surprise. From my view at the front, at least, I saw many fans perfectly happy to hear LIHS and California Sun songs and even singing along all the words to I Am Not A Dog on a Chain songs that have only been performed once or twice before.

Artists are constantly trying new things. Could we even imagine someone with undeniable gifts of creativity like Morrissey keeping the same sound and style over the course of a 38 year-long career? There are many times I wish I had been of age in the 80's and 90's to have seen The Smiths and Morrissey perform those songs then, but I can hardly blame him for doing something new.

The problem is the pacing and enthusiasm he puts into it. Compare his set lists and the level of perfomance latter day Bowie put into his gigs at roughly the same age.......it's chalk and cheese.
 
Well, football for one. We did invent that.

and you say football is going away?

I'm trying to understand your statement backing the idea when Morrissey said Britain's identity has been lost.

I have asked you to name what is that identity and how it is lost.

You have mentioned a pub closing and blamed it on Muslims when I would think is more to do with pubs being in financial difficulties and have been for years due to being undercut by the likes of Wetherspoons and supermarket prices and reduction in pub attendances.

You mentioned 50s film and music. But I am sure they are still there if people want to be interested in them. Plenty on streaming services and I often see 50s films on tv.

Anything else because it all seems a little weak in backing the argument that the UK's identity has been lost?

You dispute the likes of British reggae artists or the likes of Stormzy are actually part of UK culture but don't really understand why you say that because you haven't explained. It is made in Britain and has a movement/following within British youth culture.
 
and you say football is going away?

I'm trying to understand your statement backing the idea when Morrissey said Britain's identity has been lost.

I have asked you to name what is that identity and how it is lost.

You have mentioned a pub closing and blamed it on Muslims when I would think is more to do with pubs being in financial difficulties and have been for years due to being undercut by the likes of Wetherspoons and supermarket prices and reduction in pub attendances.

You mentioned 50s film and music. But I am sure they are still there if people want to be interested in them. Plenty on streaming services and I often see 50s films on tv.

Anything else because it all seems a little weak in backing the argument that the UK's identity has been lost?

You dispute the likes of British reggae artists or the likes of Stormzy are actually part of UK culture but don't really understand why you say that because you haven't explained. It is made in Britain and has a movement/following within British youth culture.

You don't get where I'm coming from because you're not a patriot or don't have a sense of connection to the history of these Isles. When I've read Thomas Hardy or Dickens, I see a connection...I see my people.
 
If you asked the fans of Stormzy who Norman Wisdom or Arthur Lowe or Herman's Hermits were....what response would you get? There are vast swathes of youtube videos where kids are listening to things like Led Zep for the first time. This is the age of cultural ignorance.

Just because they don’t know who Norman Wisdom was means nothing. I could probably question you about many Medieval English composers and their works or writers and great literary pieces and you probably wouldn’t know them but it doesn’t mean they are lost. So you believe uk culture is 50s films and Norman Wisdom. I wouldn’t be surprised if Norman Wisdom is completely unknown in another 50years. But what has that got to do with immigration which is where the Morrissey link came from? Do you have any examples of uk culture within the last 20 years or are you stuck in some 70s living room with flowery wallpaper watching 50s films and laughing at Norman Wisdom? This is time change not immigration.
 
Except young people who are getting it and getting respiratory issues are getting lung scarring and cases of ipf occuring in youngsters which is irreparable and they may have decreased lung capacity and life long breathing issues. Not just old people.
"And to Hell, to Hell with everybody else, everybody else" ?
 
Just because they don’t know who Norman Wisdom was means nothing. I could probably question you about many Medieval English composers and their works or writers and great literary pieces and you probably wouldn’t know them but it doesn’t mean they are lost. So you believe uk culture is 50s films and Norman Wisdom. I wouldn’t be surprised if Norman Wisdom is completely unknown in another 50years. But what has that got to do with immigration which is where the Morrissey link came from? Do you have any examples of uk culture within the last 20 years or are you stuck in some 70s living room with flowery wallpaper watching 50s films and laughing at Norman Wisdom? This is time change not immigration.

If I don't know any medieval English composers that's because I went to a secondary school on a council estate. That stuff wasn't taught to me. Which is exactly what I'm talking about. Knowledge of our past is denied us.

I am completely stuck in the past. I have very little interest in modern culture because it's so bad. There's a few exceptions but most of it's awful.
 
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