If you were Johnny Marr, what would you say to Morrissey?

ThePoliticalRevolution

Well-Known Member
I just want them to play 12 concerts in 2022.


I think Johnny could try harder. I think he's the stronger of the two. EDIT: After saying that, what would become of it? We all seem to believe a reconciliation would result in more Smiths tunes. I wouldn't necessarily want that. I'd just want them to be friends again. For both of their sakes.
 
S

Synonymous

Guest
Johnny should say: Can I do the packaging for the next Smiths boxset? I'm not great shakes at design, but Jesus Christ that last one you did was a turd.
 

hand in glove

40 percent papier mache
Subscriber
I’d like to think they’d sit and have a few drinks and laughs over some of those memories.
I’m not for a Smiths reunion at all, but it would be nice to see just Moz and Johnny with guests on the bass and drums for a tour in 2022.
 

DennisW

Active Member
To be fair Dale - and without coming over all UncleSkinny - he's always had his eye on the money end of things, hence the infamous 25/25/10/10 deal. He just wanted someone else to deal with the tedious part of sorting it out.
Given that Morrissey/Marr wrote all the songs, and thus were entitled to the publishing half of the overall royalty (typically 50/50 between mechanical and publishing), and that they also had more responsibilities in terms of admin type stuff, production, album art, media interviews, etc., the overall 40/40/10/10 deal (I assume your 25/25/10/10 was a typo, being 30 short of 100%) was actually eminently fair to Joyce and Rourke.

Unfortunately most reporting on the issue (including Moz’s autobio) doesn’t make quite clear whether Joyce was truly claiming 1/4 of all royalties (including publishing, which would be insane), or just 1/4 of mechanical royalty, plus touring/merchandise income (though Moz says the tours never really made money). If the mechanical had originally been split 1/4th each and Morrissey/Marr split the publishing, then the overall total of the whole pie for each would be 37.5/37.5/12.5/12.5 - so the original 40/40/10/10 was not far off (again, especially given the extra duties taken on by Morrissey/Marr - Media weren’t exactly clamoring for Joyce interviews and promo appearances, no?). At the absolute most, Joyce should have gotten only 2.5% more. In short, Joyce was a grasping, greedy turd, looking for a payday years later (and lucked upon a biased, incompetent, arrogant judge and generally corrupt legal system, which aided and abetted Joyce’s lies and constant changes to his story) when his original money ran out and he had no viable post-Smiths career.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I’d like to think they’d sit and have a few drinks and laughs over some of those memories.
I’m not for a Smiths reunion at all, but it would be nice to see just Moz and Johnny with guests on the bass and drums for a tour in 2022.

It'll have to be with Johnny's band. When Moz doesn't show up, Johnny will carry the show with a lot of special guests standing in the wings just in case: Noel Gallagher, Neil Finn, Eddie Vedder, Chrissie Hynde, etc.
 
R

Roger O

Guest
I knew within weeks of leaving that I was wrong. All I could do was cover my face with my young hands and watch it all move slowly to the past. I was wrong. But you my friend are a spaz.
 

Peppermint

Well-Known Member
Given that Morrissey/Marr wrote all the songs, and thus were entitled to the publishing half of the overall royalty (typically 50/50 between mechanical and publishing), and that they also had more responsibilities in terms of admin type stuff, production, album art, media interviews, etc., the overall 40/40/10/10 deal (I assume your 25/25/10/10 was a typo, being 30 short of 100%) was actually eminently fair to Joyce and Rourke.

Unfortunately most reporting on the issue (including Moz’s autobio) doesn’t make quite clear whether Joyce was truly claiming 1/4 of all royalties (including publishing, which would be insane), or just 1/4 of mechanical royalty, plus touring/merchandise income (though Moz says the tours never really made money). If the mechanical had originally been split 1/4th each and Morrissey/Marr split the publishing, then the overall total of the whole pie for each would be 37.5/37.5/12.5/12.5 - so the original 40/40/10/10 was not far off (again, especially given the extra duties taken on by Morrissey/Marr - Media weren’t exactly clamoring for Joyce interviews and promo appearances, no?). At the absolute most, Joyce should have gotten only 2.5% more. In short, Joyce was a grasping, greedy turd, looking for a payday years later (and lucked upon a biased, incompetent, arrogant judge and generally corrupt legal system, which aided and abetted Joyce’s lies and constant changes to his story) when his original money ran out and he had no viable post-Smiths career.
Yes, a typo, thanks for the correction. I accept that people who take Morrissey's side in this are never going to agree with people who don't, but I think Joyce and Rourke were entitled to expect 25% of the playing/recording royalties, and to engineer it specifically so they were denied this smacks of massive arsery. In my opinion. And also the judge's.
 

DennisW

Active Member
Yes, a typo, thanks for the correction. I accept that people who take Morrissey's side in this are never going to agree with people who don't, but I think Joyce and Rourke were entitled to expect 25% of the playing/recording royalties, and to engineer it specifically so they were denied this smacks of massive arsery. In my opinion. And also the judge's.
But that's the thing. Even if they were entitled to 25% of recording (i.e. "mechanical") part of the royalty, that works out to 12.5% of everything (including songwriting/publishing, which should all to Moz/Marr). So, the original 10% of everything was really in the right ball park (just a 2.5% difference at most - and that doesn't take into account extra work Morrisssey and Marr did beyond anything contributed to the band's success by Rourke and Joyce).
 
M

Musician

Guest
Ah
But that's the thing. Even if they were entitled to 25% of recording (i.e. "mechanical") part of the royalty, that works out to 12.5% of everything (including songwriting/publishing, which should all to Moz/Marr). So, the original 10% of everything was really in the right ball park (just a 2.5% difference at most - and that doesn't take into account extra work Morrisssey and Marr did beyond anything contributed to the band's success by Rourke and Joyce).

Ah, it's been discussed to death here. Yes, Joyce / Rourke never ever claimed songwriting royalties. Taking money for being a frontman/songwriter is high twattery. You have the pressure, responsibilities, yes, but also the fame and songwriting royalties in return. It's what you sign up for. Except if all of you in the band agree in advance about taking more money, which, even according to Morrissey and Marr never happened. So, too bad, lesson learnt.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I’d like to think they’d sit and have a few drinks and laughs over some of those memories.
I’m not for a Smiths reunion at all, but it would be nice to see just Moz and Johnny with guests on the bass and drums for a tour in 2022.
Isn't that pretty much what Johnny says happenned in 2008 in his autobiography? Only for Morrissey to suddenly get cold feet regarding the reunion bit and stop communicating with him a couple of weeks later. Can't imagine him bothering with Moz again after that.
 

hand in glove

40 percent papier mache
Subscriber
Isn't that pretty much what Johnny says happenned in 2008 in his autobiography? Only for Morrissey to suddenly get cold feet regarding the reunion bit and stop communicating with him a couple of weeks later. Can't imagine him bothering with Moz again after that.
Yes. I do recall a meeting where they had drinks and a few laughs, but I don’t remember Johnny saying anything about the two of them seriously contemplating a tour together. I don’t remember as much as I used to, though. Gettin’ senile...?
 
V

Vegan Cro Spirit 555

Guest
Yes. I do recall a meeting where they had drinks and a few laughs, but I don’t remember Johnny saying anything about the two of them seriously contemplating a tour together. I don’t remember as much as I used to, though. Gettin’ senile...?

there aint going to be no tour, like it or not :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: is going to have to find a job.
that goes for ??? as well, find work there aint going to be no reunion tour. Moz
is making more money than ever before.✍
 

DennisW

Active Member
Ah


Ah, it's been discussed to death here. Yes, Joyce / Rourke never ever claimed songwriting royalties. Taking money for being a frontman/songwriter is high twattery. You have the pressure, responsibilities, yes, but also the fame and songwriting royalties in return. It's what you sign up for. Except if all of you in the band agree in advance about taking more money, which, even according to Morrissey and Marr never happened. So, too bad, lesson learnt.
So if they weren’t claiming 1/4 of literally all (incl. songwriting), they got about what they were worth. Joyce and his lawyers just found a way to game the legal system years later by playing dumb.

And how is “high twattery” for getting more money for being frontman/songwriter? It’s justified, though it may not make for the best band friendships/dynamics. Sure some bands do just split all equally (even publishing when all don’t contribute equally to the songwriting musically or lyrically - U2 and REM were probably most famous for doing this), but most don’t split all equally (I think in part it depends whether the guys were friends before the band, as in the U2 & REM cases, or some were more or less hired hands later like Rourke and Joyce after Morrissey and Marr had already formed a songwriting partnership).

Anyway, my last 2 cents on that topic. Probably done to death and best shelved.
 
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