10 year anniversary of Ringleader Of The Tormentors

marred

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I recently got a new turntable, quite a good one actually. I was pleased to discover that Ringleader Of The Tormentors sounds much improved on my new record player. While I was enjoying this fantastic album it dawned on me it's been around for ten years, well almost! It was recorded in Italy in the Autumn of 2005 and released on April 3rd of 2006. Yes this is a premature announcement but I am using it as an excuse to talk about how great it sounds on vinyl.

On my last turntable it was unlistenable so I usually resorted to playing my CD. Even I Just Want To See The Boy Happy sounded great, and that's saying a lot because I'm not a big fan of that song. I love every other song on the album. I almost went astral planing during Life Is A Pigsty.

I wonder if there will be a ten year remaster release coming our way. I realise a remaster won't sort out the muddy sound. It probably needs remixing altogether.

ps:ignore tumbnails below. No idea what happened there.
 

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I think it's actually a pretty good album. I think it's a got a hell of a lot more staying power than either Refusal or World Peace. I liked World Peace a lot when it first came out and now I almost never listen to it. But ROTT I still play fairly often.

I don't think a lot of it translated live, but that may have been because it was around that time that he seemed to have given up on employing any backing musicians that possessed even an iota of flair. But the record itself, yeah...I like it a lot. I think it's at least as good as Quarry. I'd count at least a third of it, if not half, as rightfully belonging in a top 20 post-Maladjusted Morrissey tracks.
 
It has Matt Chamberlin down as playing the drums. Who is he? Or is it just Walker under another name?
 
It has Matt Chamberlin down as playing the drums. Who is he? Or is it just Walker under another name?

He was Bowie's drummer at the time, so I guess he was probably roped in by TV.
 
I consider WPINOYB the best of the post-comeback albums sonically, but Ringleader is the latter-day Morrissey album I find myself listening to the most. I do sometimes wish the breathtaking expanse and lush arrangements of Dear God, Please Help Me and Life Is a Pigsty carried over to the rest of the album. WPINOYB seems to me to be a kind of continuation in that vein, in terms of the very textured, richly detailed instrumentation. I can't help but feel as though Ringleader has unfulfilled potential that could have been realized with a different producer.

And I agree, it does sound good on vinyl and a repress is long overdue.
 
I consider WPINOYB the best of the post-comeback albums sonically, but Ringleader is the latter-day Morrissey album I find myself listening to the most. I do sometimes wish the breathtaking expanse and lush arrangements of Dear God, Please Help Me and Life Is a Pigsty carried over to the rest of the album. WPINOYB seems to me to be a kind of continuation in that vein, in terms of the very textured, richly detailed instrumentation. I can't help but feel as though Ringleader has unfulfilled potential that could have been realized with a different producer.

And I agree, it does sound good on vinyl and a repress is long overdue.

I was just thinking recently how "World Peace" seems more of a continuation of "Ringleader." I don't really know about who else Jerry Finn produced besides Blink 182, but he didn't seem the kind of guy to go for expansive productions.
 
I consider WPINOYB the best of the post-comeback albums sonically, but Ringleader is the latter-day Morrissey album I find myself listening to the most. I do sometimes wish the breathtaking expanse and lush arrangements of Dear God, Please Help Me and Life Is a Pigsty carried over to the rest of the album. WPINOYB seems to me to be a kind of continuation in that vein, in terms of the very textured, richly detailed instrumentation. I can't help but feel as though Ringleader has unfulfilled potential that could have been realized with a different producer.

And I agree, it does sound good on vinyl and a repress is long overdue.

I definitely hear resemblances between WP and ROTT. I Will See You In Far Off Places could've been on WPINOYB easily. I'm really getting into that song a lot lately. It's a great opener for an album and At Last I Am Born is a great closer.

I think I Will See You In Far Off Places could've made a great single.

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when you say 'responsible' do you mean it's shortcomings? I thought it might be a fault in mastering. Besides it's problems..I enjoy it's darkness,rich layers,etc. My favorite M records for their productions.. 'Viva','Vaux',Arsenal' and 'Ringleader'. I think 'Worldpeace' is a little too perfect, 'glassy' even.

Not to sound like a vinyl snob but have you listened to World Peace.. on vinyl yet or just CD/mp3?

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If you ever saw the Pearl Jam video for Alive, that is him on drums. He is primarily a studio drummer.

Oh okay then thanks for that.
 
when you say 'responsible' do you mean it's shortcomings? I thought it might be a fault in mastering. Besides it's problems..I enjoy it's darkness,rich layers,etc. My favorite M records for their productions.. 'Viva','Vaux',Arsenal' and 'Ringleader'. I think 'Worldpeace' is a little too perfect, 'glassy' even.
There are definitely issues with how the album is mixed. Typically the producer oversees the mixing process, so yes, Visconti is partially responsible for that aspect of the album.

I also think that WPINOYB demonstrates that Morrissey's band is capable of stellar studio performances that were glimpsed in the songs I highlighted from ROTT. Morrissey probably had a strong influence on shaping the album's sound, including band performances, but part of a producer's rule is to guide the musicians in the studio, coax the very best of their abilities to the fore, and suggest arrangements for songs and I can't help but feel as though Visconti could have done more in this regard, particularly in terms of song arrangements and instrumentation. Though again, I can't know for sure the extent of his suggestions and how much of his input might have been vetoed by Morrissey.

For example, take The Bullfighter Dies vs. I Just Want to See the Boy Happy. Both Tobias-penned tracks. The former could have easily been as dull as the latter if it weren't for the bright guitar flourishes and the accordion underpinning the verses, all arguably elements of the arrangement shaped by the producer. I suspect the trumpet at the end of I Just Want to See the Boy Happy was meant to provide the same bolstering effect, but instead of augmenting the track it turns it into yet another tepid latin-flavored number. Similarly, guitar arpeggiations rather than power chords might have made a significant difference. I'm not saying all of ROTT is in dire need of a drastic overhaul, but there are a few songs I think could have benefited from different arrangements and stylistic approaches (see also: Sweetie-Pie).
 
There are definitely issues with how the album is mixed. Typically the producer oversees the mixing process, so yes, Visconti is partially responsible for that aspect of the album.

I also think that WPINOYB demonstrates that Morrissey's band is capable of stellar studio performances that were glimpsed in the songs I highlighted from ROTT. Morrissey probably had a strong influence on shaping the album's sound, including band performances, but part of a producer's rule is to guide the musicians in the studio, coax the very best of their abilities to the fore, and suggest arrangements for songs and I can't help but feel as though Visconti could have done more in this regard, particularly in terms of song arrangements and instrumentation. Though again, I can't know for sure the extent of his suggestions and how much of his input might have been vetoed by Morrissey.

For example, take The Bullfighter Dies vs. I Just Want to See the Boy Happy. Both Tobias-penned tracks. The former could have easily been as dull as the latter if it weren't for the bright guitar flourishes and the accordion underpinning the verses, all arguably elements of the arrangement shaped by the producer. I suspect the trumpet at the end of I Just Want to See the Boy Happy was meant to provide the same bolstering effect, but instead of augmenting the track it turns it into yet another tepid latin-flavored number. Similarly, guitar arpeggiations rather than power chords might have made a significant difference. I'm not saying all of ROTT is in dire need of a drastic overhaul, but there are a few songs I think could have benefited from different arrangements and stylistic approaches (see also: Sweetie-Pie).

As far as I remember the version of The Bullfighter Dies that we all know isn't the version that Joe Chicharelli wanted. Moz vetoed another version for this simpler one.
 
As far as I remember the version of The Bullfighter Dies that we all know isn't the version that Joe Chicharelli wanted. Moz vetoed another version for this simpler one.
Are you referring to Chicarelli's recollection here? He does say his original mix was more complex than what eventually wound up on the album, but that doesn't mean he had no influence in the direction or arrangement of the song at all. This just lends some insight into post-production.

Given how drastically Art-Hounds changed from its live debut in 2011 to the form in which it appears on the bonus disc, and how different the WPINYB sessions sound from anything the band debuted or recorded just a few years prior, Chicarelli's input clearly made a significant difference and we would have gotten a very different album with someone else.
 
As far as I remember the version of The Bullfighter Dies that we all know isn't the version that Joe Chicharelli wanted. Moz vetoed another version for this simpler one.

Personally I think The Bullfighter Dies is the weakest song on WPINOYB mainly because of the guitar. It is basically non existent. You can hear the contact of the pick against the strings but the rest of the guitar sound is muted. It's like someone forgot to plug it in or something.

Getting back to ROTT though some of the B sides are just absolutely stellar! Particularly Sweetie Pie and If You Don't Like Me Then Don't Look At me.
 
There are definitely issues with how the album is mixed. Typically the producer oversees the mixing process, so yes, Visconti is partially responsible for that aspect of the album.

I don't think it is the mix. I'm fairly certain that the CDs were pressed with a master intended for vinyl. Unless Visconti actually asked for that (very unlikely), it's a f***-up that's nothing to do with him. It sounds a lot better if you turn up the treble halfway.

FWIW, I think Ringleader is, by a country mile, the best of Morrissey's post-2000 albums, mainly just in terms of the strength of the songwriting. Even the weakest song (I reckon 8 out of 10 cats would say that's On the Streets I Ran) would be close to a standout on World Peace, IMO. Morrissey's singing is also better than on anything else he's ever recorded.

I have to say, though, that I also think Ringleader is the best-produced of Moz's latterday output. What Visconti has succeeded in doing is getting the musicians to play with character and dynamics, and together, which is what a producer should be doing. I think Joe C and Jerry Finn (although less so on YOR) have taken a more MOR rock approach focusing on trying to get the "best sound" out of the instruments, mainly through lots of post-production. That's not necessarily a bad thing to do in itself, but the danger is that you're separating the layers of instrumentation and reducing the importance of how well they go together and how they work to support the actual song (Bullfighter, for instance doesn't do anything in this regard, it just goes round and round). Plus, you end up creating tracks that have the same familiar character as literally thousands of recordings that have come through a similar production-by-numbers process. Even if they don't sound exactly the same, you somehow get the feeling that they do.

I don't like the Spinal Tap gong at the end of the opening track, though. Leave the gags to Bob Monkhouse, please.
 
I don't think it is the mix. I'm fairly certain that the CDs were pressed with a master intended for vinyl. Unless Visconti actually asked for that (very unlikely), it's a f***-up that's nothing to do with him. It sounds a lot better if you turn up the treble halfway.
Interesting. That would make sense. Thanks for the tip.


I have to say, though, that I also think Ringleader is the best-produced of Moz's latterday output. What Visconti has succeeded in doing is getting the musicians to play with character and dynamics, and together, which is what a producer should be doing. I think Joe C and Jerry Finn (although less so on YOR) have taken a more MOR rock approach focusing on trying to get the "best sound" out of the instruments, mainly through lots of post-production. That's not necessarily a bad thing to do in itself, but the danger is that you're separating the layers of instrumentation and reducing the importance of how well they go together and how they work to support the actual song (Bullfighter, for instance doesn't do anything in this regard, it just goes round and round). Plus, you end up creating tracks that have the same familiar character as literally thousands of recordings that have come through a similar production-by-numbers process. Even if they don't sound exactly the same, you somehow get the feeling that they do.
Great points. I really like the separation and clarity of the instruments on WPINOYB, a result of the "MOR" approach, but you've definitely given me a lot to think about in reconsidering some of the merits of ROTT. Although I don't necessarily agree that a producer should have a band record "live" or together. I think it depends on the situation and what sort of sound the artist wants to achieve. That said, albums recorded in this manner do tend to sound really cohesive, with the band fully "present," which is what you seem to be getting at with regards to ROTT.
 
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Although I don't necessarily agree that a producer should have a band record "live" or together. I think it depends on the situation and what sort of sound the artist wants to achieve. That said, albums recorded in this manner do tend to sound really cohesive, with the band fully "present," which is what you seem to be getting at with regards to ROTT.

I believe they took the live tracking approach, perhaps out of necessity, before TV was involved. Didn't Jeff Saltzman pull out at the eleventh hour after the session/studio had been booked and the band soldiered on, more or less with Boz in charge? I recall TV saying himself in his book that he built the tracks on the base that had already been recorded. Though it wouldn't have been antithetical to prior sessions: I think it was very common in the Lads era of 1992-1997 for them to record the basic tracks live, after which Boz and Alain would layer the guitar parts.

I don't think TV, or anyone else associated for that matter, has ever said exactly when Matt Chamberlain came onto the project. When the sessions were originally announced, I assumed he had been enlisted by Visconti due to their recent work at the time with Bowie and Alejandro Escovedo. Since the drum tracks are typically laid down and secured first, I wonder if Mauritzio Matzi, the drummer credited on "Human Being" and "Good Looking Man About Town," played with the band to secure the basic tracks and then was replaced by Chamberlain after TV joined to add session pro finesse. PJLM suggests these tracks were recorded later, but Alain seems to have not been at the entirety of the sessions and is clearly present on the tracks. (He is not seen in the video recorded during the scoring of "Dear God Please Help Me.")

As a whole album, I enjoyed ROTT more than YATQ when it was released, but I pick and choose tracks to listen to now. In fact, there isn't a single Morrissey release since Maladjusted that I listen to in its entirety these days.

One other peculiarity, in my opinion, is that Jesse's songs get progressively weaker, track by track. Retrospectively, it's pretty clear that one of his songs should have been relegated to a B-side in favor of "Christian Dior."
 
I definitely hear resemblances between WP and ROTT. I Will See You In Far Off Places could've been on WPINOYB easily. I'm really getting into that song a lot lately. It's a great opener for an album and At Last I Am Born is a great closer.

I think I Will See You In Far Off Places could've made a great single.

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Not to sound like a vinyl snob but have you listened to World Peace.. on vinyl yet or just CD/mp3?

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Oh okay then thanks for that.

Far off places is definitely one of my favorite songs for him to play live. That and gang lord are definitely some of the more "big" songs that inject a lot of energy into the show. They just sound great.
 
It's not Visconti's production that's the problem, it's that the album was mastered far too loud (and we all know that Morrissey has lost some of his hearing, and loves his band loud). This is why there is virtually no dynamic range on the album, and everything is just a flat wall of sound. The one song which they've resisted the temptation to brickwall the mastering volume and retain the dynamics is 'Dear God, Please help Me', which as a result sounds much better.

Whether this is down to whoever mastered the thing, or Visconti, or Morrissey, or the record label, or a combination of all of them, who knows - but it desperately needs a full dynamic range remaster.

Don't take my workd for it - here are the levels:
(The scale ranges from 1 (worst) to 20 (best) - 'Dear God' is still so compressed it falls on the bad side of the scale, but it's the best of a very bad bunch:
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/6536

Out of all the recordings of Morrissey on the site - Ringleader sits on top with the very worst dynamic range:
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr?artist=morrissey
 
I always liked "On The Streets I Ran" for the line about the Palmist, and the message of trying to escape the hometown's perception of you or else you will be "crushed" (I never would re-visit my hometown!) I seem to come back to ROTT a lot, can't say why, but I love its cynicism and the first track is great-- I didn't like it much when I heard it, but after seeing it live on The World Peace tour in 2015 I got back into that song. I also like YOR, I play that album the most, like the first track on that one and how Morrissey nonchalantly says "Thank you, drop dead!". What I always say to detractors! When I took my date to see him on tour I was playing YOR, and Black Cloud came on, and it was oh too fitting for the circumstance, so it makes me laugh / yet somehow sad because I tried too hard. Oh, young love, bane of my existence.
 
I couldn't believe T.V would o.k the mix to be mastered if it sounded like that on the studio monitors.

Toni Visconti didn't master the album, that was done by someone called Emily Lazar. The studio mix and the mastering process are two different things. At this remove, and without anyone being able to hear the final studio mix that Visconti delivered, it's impossible to tell exactly where the fault lays - but ramping up the volume and crushing everything with compression is usually something that occurs at the mastering stage. The vinyl may well be a different master. It's a while since I've listened to it on LP - I'll have to dig it up and give it a whirl.
 
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