Morrissey-solo
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posted by
davidt
on Wednesday May 14 2003, @08:30AM
It's been over 10 days since Morrissey's lawyer emailed about filing an injunction and the legal action. No word yet on anything further.
I have read through most of the comments and emails. Some arguments were made on Morrissey's side against me but mostly support, which I found overwhelming. I received several offers to help with the legal costs and even some donations through the PayPal account I set up for the emergency server fund a couple years ago, which is now (hopefully temporarily) the emergency legal fund. All the money collected since I started it is still there, so I should be fine. I am not worried because 1) we have freedom of speech in this country and 2) I did not post the items that are claimed to be false/defamatory anyway. That doesn't mean anything can be posted without consequence, it means the person who posted it is responsible for what they say, which is how I choose to run the site. The initial Cease and Desist I see mainly as an act of intimidation which did have some effect initially. I have never had a lawyer or gone through any lawsuits. Fortunately I am surrounded by brilliant people who kept me calm and gave good advice. The topic of the appropriateness of the rumor to begin with was mentioned a lot. It is an uncomfortable topic, perhaps intrusive, but I do not regret posting it. My reasoning was basically to liken it to a similar story posted in Nov. 2000 about Gary Westman, the road manager stealing that year's US tour profits (link). Morrissey did not mind the topic being brought up then, in fact he insisted on it. The current situation is similar, except perhaps in reverse. Why is it suddenly none of my business now? By the way, I am now hearing, over 2 years later, that Gary Westman actually did not steal the money. I don't know the story and I am sorry I was talked into posting it. Although it is too late to mean much, I apologize to Gary and will make an amendment to the story. The crew member I know was working on the tour wrote to me after the rumor was posted that he and others hadn't been paid yet and I have no reason to doubt him. I don't think it's too much to ask for your fair share. If Morrissey or his lawyers had pointed out to me exactly what was false I would have reviewed it and maybe I would have deleted it and then I would have posted why I deleted it. But they insisted on removing the post and all of the comments which goes against free speech and my general policy of not deleting comments. Morrissey knows I have posted and will post on the site any statement he wants to make. It's always been up to him. As for the site itself, I am still not sure but I think it will continue on. There are many paradoxes in these recent events, this website and the internet in general. It keeps things exciting I suppose and proves to me that there is still a lot of passion left. I've made it through some of the toughest challenges in the last couple of years and this is just another one I will make it through. My feelings on Morrissey are that I am still a fan but it appears to me the direction he is heading in is a dangerous one.
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still confused (Score:1)
Take care, keep faith
(User #220 Info)
I'm relieved. (Score:1)
I had the sense that you have felt manipulated by Moz in the past, and that posting the rumor thread was your way of stating your independence. And that's perfectly fine, to my mind. This is your website; you get to make the rules.
Thanks for staying strong!
(User #7960 Info)
Geek Tragedy (Score:1)
I used to get in all sorts of trouble for firing off ill-advised missives in my younger days. A particular favourite of mine was an absolute character assassination of a former girlfriends new beau back in '98.
You can't beat a spot of trouble-making. Non-violent though, obviously.
May both parties heve a bright(er) future!
Moz and Dave I mean, not my former lover and her hideous (now) husband.
(User #4261 Info)
Kudos (Score:2, Insightful)
I, for one, will be happy to see this site continue - it's really the lifeline of Morrissey related info, and he quite frankly needs this forum to keep the fanbase intact.
I trust that eventually, cooler heads will prevail and lawsuits and threats will be unnecessary. That's not the Morrissey that I grew up listening to. Some of the suggestions made in the offending thread really only told one side of the story, hopefully the other side is heard as well, and we will all be able to forgive and forget as we look forward to some new material.
(User #6425 Info)
best news all day (Score:1)
(User #7294 Info)
keep (Score:1)
And yes, we're on your side!
(User #284 Info)
PAZ y AMOR! (Score:1)
Let's resume and continue.
David, BRAVO!
from: "The Mozz Militia in Tijuana"
(User #417 Info)
eh sorry (Score:1)
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
Is the link broken?
(User #284 Info)
No News Good News (Score:2, Insightful)
No matter what you decide in the future my friend, i'm by your side.
Anyways a polite action from Morrissey wouldn't harm and would be well appreciated, like it's been said, this was not the way.
cheers
(User #381 Info)
hmmmm (Score:2, Insightful)
I think a lot of the negativty towards Moz in this case has been a culmination in both the action towards David coupled with the somewhat ironic rumour culture that seems to surround his career over the last six years.
Yes I've read all the 'Oh he doesn't owe you anything because he didn't ask for Morrissey-solo in the first place' posts but his outright refusal to make a concrete point blank statement either way as to a new album for SIX years (not minding when rumour after rumour after RUMOUR consistently comes to nothing after that on Moz-solo), or leaving people who take interest in his work in the dark having to go on heresay as to announced 1month in advanced tours is, as David says, a dangerous path for him to choose.
No he doesn't owe us anything but a bit of courtesey wouldn't go amiss.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
(User #4742 Info)
Class.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Best Wishes,
Jason G.
xox
(User #80 Info)
David, I'm on your side, but... (Score:0)
If Gary Westman didn't steal the money who did? (Score:2, Interesting)
(User #843 Info)
Parent
The money was not stolen. Full stop. (Score:2, Interesting)
Inbetween the various Oye Esteban tour legs Morrissey went on 2 holidays. One holiday was from December 21 until the end of Janurary around the 21st.
The second holiday was from March 6 until March 20th. I think he was in Portugal, but can't be sure. In any case, guess where the money for these holidays came from??? You guessed it, the money to foot the hotel bills for Moz's vacation's between tour legs came from the tour kitty.
The tour crew depending on the position earn a pretty good wage. I once came across a document that said about how much money staff individuals get paid -- not specificlly for the Morrissey tour -- but the rates specific Morrissey crew members charge. I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember that one of the positions paid more £ per day than I earn in a week.
I don't know Gary Westman, although I have met him a few times. He seems like a nice enough bloke. He's kind of a quiet guy.
Anyhow, I can say without a doubt in my mind that Gary Westman made sure every single crew member got paid -- and in cash no less.
Perhaps if Westman stiffed '99-00 crew like Colin Mutton stiffed the '02 crew then Morrissey wouldn't make such outrageous claims that his money was stolen.
(User #5373 Info | http://www.mbendi.co.za/cyeqmps2.gif)
Parent
the worst aspect of this whole thing (Score:0)
hope David T gets thru this OK and that everyone in the crew gets paid.
An open letter to everyone (Score:0, Troll)
You will be much better off doing a website focusiing on Judy Garland as the majority of people who use this site are either little gay boys or ugly girls who can't get a shag.
Remember, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all the people some of the time, which is just long enough to be president of the United States. Chopsticks are one of the reasons the Chinese never invented custard
gettin a bit touch`y (Score:0)
(User #5803 Info)
You´re the Best DAVE (Score:1)
(User #6796 Info | http://unodeesos.blogspot.com/)
Absobloodylutely! (Score:1)
I am glad to hear you are felling better maybe it´s time for you to put your efforts on the service of another artist, he is no longer the man he used to be.
The sad fan
(User #3557 Info)
Custom content(-ment?) (Score:1)
First, this is not an official site. The statement on the "About [morrissey-solo.com]" page is quite clear:
This site is "run by one person, David Tseng....Suggestions are welcome, however I do consider it rude when people try to tell me how to run my site." When posting a comment, it is clear that "illegal" comments are subject to moderation.
Second, on every individual article page, the comments are preceded by The Fine Print which also is clear:
"The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way." However, on the comment-submittal page, it is also clear that comments might be moderated.
Third, David, I commend you for using Slashcode to power this site. It allows for moderation of comments by users to increase the visibility of valuable comments and a customizable interface to allow the visitor to avoid others. If I'd rather not bother to read "troll" posts, I can increase my threshold to avoid them. Please remember that the user should bear some respobsibility to use the tools offered by the site to customize content.
As far as the subject matter is concerned, the clearly-marked rumor that started this entire debate, if true, would impact the possibility of another tour or album - usually what "fans" want and the reason they visit a fansite.
Finally, let me re-iterate that this is your site, David and I am thankful for the service it has provided me until now and hopefully in the future.
You don't owe me anything.
(User #5128 Info | http://lantner.net/david)
mavbe this site should just be called "-solo" (Score:0)
Its strange to see so many david t fans though, because i thought he was just a morrissey fan himself who stepped over the line once with a libelous story and got told off by the man himself?
Paradoxes (Score:1)
(User #2426 Info)
Love this site (Score:1)
Even though I understand the way Moz reacted (overreacted?) and I sympathise with the guy (he's just trying to protect his good name and his livelihood), He can't let this wonderful fan resource close just because he doesn't like one little story on it.
I just hope that Moz reads all the posts in support of David, therefore he will realise that if he persists in trying to shut the site down he will piss off a sizeable chunk of his fanbase- even those who don't use the site will learn that he has shut an innicent fansite down, and it will reflect badly on him - it's very Diva-like behaviour, more fitting of someone like Madonna.
(User #7728 Info)
Support for both David & Morrissey (Score:0)
I still love Morrissey dearly, but I do think he ha handled this thing in the...shall we say...not best of ways. One part of why I still support him is the fact that I do not think (as some people seem to suggest) has 'drowned in his stardom' - he has always been a difficult character, and that is part of his (weird) appeal. I do hope he solves all the problems with the unpaid crew (if it is true, I wouldn't know) and such, if nothing else for his own sake.
I hope you still want to continue David, and remember we are many here that are enourmously thankful for your work. As for El Moz, well I just hope he goes on tour again - I will be there.
This is wonderful (Score:0)
But seriously-
David, I wouldn't worry. I don't believe Morrissey is the enemy that everyone suddenly thinks he is.
He gave you a shock to try and teach you that you can't just go spreading rumours about people.
But lets not start talking like he's already shut down morrissey-solo.
He hasn't and he won't. You said yourself, his lawyers have sent no further word.
Lets not all attack him for something he hasn't done yet.
Great job david (Score:0)
A Dangerous path indeed... (Score:0)
Sure I think it terrible if the rumour is true he didn't pay is crew. Is it my business no, but it is still relevent and news worthy. The story did not make me dislike Morrissey any less, as we know full well he is devious when it comes to money and business. I do dislike Morrissey for the fact he has the nerve to completely bite the hand that feeds him which is this site.
Morrissey if you read this liset to the following: You once openly stated you are box office poison. That is a sad but true statement. Do not abuse the fans that have kept you in your Z-Roadster, Fabulous home, and Corona filled Fridge. It is ana terrible thing you are doing. I've been there since 86 the highs and lows. I've held your hand three times and spoke to you outsie the HM in Hollywood in 99. Don't sour everything for me, David and countless others that have looked passed and forgiven everything from Mike Joyce,Writting Get Off The Stage, and now this.
mufc red
Thank You (Score:0)
wait a minute.. (Score:1)
Please, don't be so judgemental. Don't judge people, especially when you for sure don't have all the facts.
(User #7591 Info)
Morrissey Please (Score:0)
Morrissey and DavidT are both great but (Score:1)
(User #2426 Info)
hoax anyone? (Score:1)
somewhere a juvenile soul may be having a laff at david and moz fans' expense.
(User #149 Info)
Well said David! (Score:1)
in case you thought about wrapping things up, i think you might have noticed the strong interest and passion that is still out here. your decision either way, but i have a feeling the responses might help you decide.
(User #1113 Info)
Nothing but words... (Score:1)
Beyond all the Mozzarella stories, I think that the present general debate is very sane and shows how different can be the people who have one single common interest. It's a website about Morrissey, not a newspaper. David is NOT A JOURNALIST so he cannot be prosecuted for what he hasn't done ! Neither are we. I believe that most people still have a hard time comprehending what's happening on the Internet and automatically try to refer to an "old" media : papers, TV, radio, whatever...
Such a website just cannot be shut down. US people have already lost their TV, don't take the web away ! This kind of site is the very symbol of something which is not supposed to exist in our global market : freedom of speech, free of charge and non gov or company regulated. In a the real world and in our free countries, we also call it the freedom of reunion : people who have the same interest gather and speak about this interest. It's part of our inalienable rights.
So now I do believe that this site must go on if its users will to do so. We all see Morrissey in a different way after reading the content of this site and that's something no record company will ever be able to do, no matter what commercial effort they do in their promotion strategy !
Don't believe the people who say that morrissey-solo has done nothing for Morrissey or Morrissey doesn't need it. If Morrissey had an official site, it could never be as rich as this one. A webmaster like David is usually a full-time job. You can add some extra-work for the moderation of the posts (which would then become compulsory since the site is official). Redaction of the regular content takes a journalist (eek) or at least a copist, another part-time job. The hosting and the bandwidth has a price too. Etc. Etc. All this work is bancable and it's being done for free ! The last tour wouldn't have sold out without the Internet and People like David.
Any work has a value. This one here has highly contributed to the survival of an artist that has done nothing in the new century. What's the need of choosing a side ? One cannot exist without the other right now !
(User #3238 Info)
Legal aspects (Score:0)
I agree and support your course of action wholeheartedly. I have been a visitor to your site for many years and read every day, much like most of your visitors.
However, I think there are two important points to note regarding the action Morrissey has taken:
1) A letter from a lawyer does not neccesarily mean Morrissey is against this site; it is clear that only the possibly defamatory posts should be removed;
2) also, if we take a step back, we may see that it is not the site that Morrissey needs to defend himself, but wider disemmination. We all know Morrissey's "difficult" relationship with the media (especially the furore in the British music press c. 1991) and it is certainly possible that Morrissey is looking to prevent stories about his business affairs from reaching other audiences apart from this site. To do that, he needs to remove it from here. Of course, he can't just say "You guys look at it, but don't tell no one else, OK?". He does have a reputation (good or bad), and he has a legitimate right in protecting it.
However, as you have noted yourself, Morrissey could have easily let it be known that he wished the posts to be removed through other channels. Nonetheless, he didn't draft the letter - perhaps the tone of it was not intended. Let's hope so.
Moz is God (Score:0)
posing soddomite (Score:2, Insightful)
i think the best thing morrissey could have done in this case was just completely ignore it from the beginning. like he did with every newspaper article and biography that has come out to date that has a mention of his business practices or allegations of racism.
true, people were angry and outraged when it first came out, but that's a spur of the moment reaction. its like a reopened wound, but in the end, most of the diehards know he already has had problems in this area before. after a short while, it fades and people get excited about tours and magazine appearances again.
and that's exactly what would have happened had not the lawyer circus come in with threats.
as you can see, it grew into a topic with over 600 replies, and the majority of them weren't happy. maybe moz saw it as a way of leaving his business deals private, but to the average fan, their very own community was under attack. this is the only place most of us here have to discuss his career and find out if he's in a magazine or if he's on tour and has a new album out. I know that without this website i'd never know. I know that i would have given up looking in the new release bin long ago for a new album because i would have assumed he was long retired. i dont read music mags that much and skimming them at the newsstand is a guaranteed way of missing information.
and certainly since he hasn't played where i live at in over 10 years, i definitely wouldn't know anything.
and probably most of the rest of you wouldn't, either.
and to top it off, every magazine and radio show turns to this website not only for information, but for letting the fans know to tune in. and therefore, they know they can have people from all over the world looking for that magazine or tuning in on internet radio and that fuels the likelihood of there being more news articles and more Smiths weeks on BBC6.
morrissey doesn't have a manager and he doesn't release press statements on a whole. so over time, all of these entities have become entertwined and they all need one another.
you don't attack peoples homes if you are trying to win their hearts and minds. you spare them and go after the real culprit. the fans aren't the enemy, but we all have feelings that range beyond blind love.
(User #36 Info)
After all the dust has settled..... (Score:1)
Keep the site up, David!
(User #4574 Info)
No right answer, no wrong answer. (Score:1)
But then again, it was a brutal way of doing this, and scaring and threatening people who are working in good will towards promoting an artist's career is cruel.
I think the best thing to do is to put the personal offense at being legally threatened aside and view it in simpler terms. Posting the rumor is perfectly legal, but it seems to have alarmed Morrissey on a level that made him do something pretty extreme. I don't think he's offened with you, David, I think he's offeneded by the accusation, wherever it came from. You're just the one who has to deal with it.
I think if you dive back into Morrissey's comments about meeting his idols - and always being disappointed - you'll have an answer to this problem. Maybe getting into perosnal affairs and business arrnagements is good for news, but it is also exposing him. The rumor touched a nerve. It was a risk of being curious. And now, we're disappointed with what he's done. We've seen a little too much of our idol, and we too are disappointed.
(User #492 Info)
a few things.... (Score:1)
(User #762 Info)
david...he should be kissing your ASS!!!! (Score:0)
Keep Strong!!!!!!
The Calm before the Storm (Score:1)
The thing that I fear is that when his lawyers come after you, it won't be JUST because of that rumour, they will they hunt down every copyright infrignment, every mis-used photo, everything that could possibly be slightly illegal. When they come, they're going to come with a thick case.
I am not surprized that Morrissey re-acted this. David, please understand, you can not post a rumour of this calibre and expect to remain in Morrissey's good graces. He has cut people out of his life for doing substantially less!
Yes, I hope you two mend fences, but I truely believe that Morrissey sent his lawyers after you becuase HIS feelings were hurt; because HE felt betrayed -- and betrayed by you, someone he thought was in his corner for 10 years. You are supposed to be on his side (I'm not claiming that you're not, but from his POV hey probably sees the rumour post as an act of betrayl)
So Morrissey lashed out (as expected). He sent his lawyers after you and now your feelings are hurt.
There are no winners here. The two of you are sitting somewhere in southern California with bruised egos.
Personally, I feel that you should be able to print what you want becuase this is your web site.
Morrissey has the right to feel offended at anything you post.
Morrissey should pay those who haven't received payment for their work or services -- but that is beyond the point. In reading the rumours (and contributing to them) I somehow felt a sense that too much information was being revaled. I loved reading it all, from a gossipy POV. But after I read it, I said to myself, "Jesus, is David trying to ex-communicate himself?"
I do not think you are helping yourself by saying "My feelings on Morrissey are that I am still a fan but it appears to me the direction he is heading in is a dangerous one." -- Why is it dangerous? Is that a veilled threat? What happens if Morrissey pursues this? What are you going to do?
The best thing you can do (so that you won't cause any more trouble with Morrissey) is drop it. The more you say about it, the worse this situation will get. Even posting the Cease and Desist order I'm sure is enough to evoke anger from Morrissey. I believe you posted it becuase you were hurt and angry -- similar to how Morrissey probably felt when the tour details were revealed.
On the flip side, perhaps it is good that all of this happened. Since it is likely that Morrissey hates you, you should post more rumours! Bring out the dirty laundry. We want to hear it all! I mean what else can he do, sue you?
One parting thought:
There goes your photo pass!
(User #5373 Info | http://www.mbendi.co.za/cyeqmps2.gif)
"Written lies....."..posted 'lies'.... (Score:0)
James
(User #5203 Info)
opinion (Score:0)
you know that false alligations are illegal so what do you expect..
end of the day... you approved it to be put on the site..
morrissey is in the right and you are not.
Lets Just Forget About It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Score:1)
If the response was genuine, it was over the top but lets just forget about it, delete the article and all look forward to a new album to rescue us from Robbie Williams and Justin Timberlake.
David, youre doing a great job with the website- long may it continue- just leave out the Morrissey bashing rumours. And to all the so-called "fans" who want to smash all his records and burn him at the stake- lets get a life and just remember that Morrissey has probably enriched your lives more than you will ever realise.
(User #8271 Info)
Morrissey will explain ..... (Score:0)
Morrissey the 23rd
Simple Undeniable Fact: (Score:0)
Morrissey, this is a pretty despicable way to say thank you to a man who asks for nothing yet gives you so much. I hope you're ashamed.
Morrissey "fans" (Score:1)
(User #3004 Info)
Dangerous Territory Indeed! (Score:1)
This kind of litigous track will certainly help to derail any thoughts of Moz making a significant comeback, or at the least turn thousands of loving and loyal Moz fans off of supporting such a jerk tactic! Is that smart? No!
(User #8273 Info)
Dude (Score:1)
(User #8274 Info)
end (Score:0)
It's not 1982 anymore. The guy hasn't made a decent album in a decade, & the vinyl on the old & familiar has worn down from too many listenings. The back catalog has been milked backwards & forwards. Those old songs have done their job. Why don't you invest your legal funds into creating new & meaningful something, here in 2003.
On to new & vital things.
Comments from the minority (Score:1)
I just want to again reiterate my appreciation for the excellence David Tseng has pursued with this site and commend him for such temperate expressions in the above thread. I want to believe he is as honest and sincere about his appreciation for Morrissey as he has expressed. I think any misjudgements he may have made regarding this mess are not capital crimes and should not cause the site's extinction.
I wonder why Morrissey has escalated things so, as he is an intelligent person who usually takes a high road and stays above the gossipy fray. From what I've read over the last few years, he has managed his funds well despite not having much career success for several years. Either he's hiding some enormous financial sin, is furious at this site for some other personal reason (which may or may not be justified), or perhaps is just cracking up.
I would like to have seen David Tseng's frank comments sooner. While their timing is curious, they do put together a cohesive, more comfortable context to understanding this saga. David Tseng's point of view and actions taken are seen very differently by Morrissey and his fans.
I hope the truth comes out before a new album does.
(User #2464 Info)